Did you see the pictures of Pentagon with pieces of a 757 laying in the debris? What is your opinon on that?
That's quite a stretch. Hitler controlled what people did, where they went, what they read. If you dissented you disappeared. People didn't question out of fear. If that was true here this conversation wouldn't be happening, the consipiracy web sites would be down, the conspiracy books would never be published. This is not Nazi Germany by a long stretch -- and I am not a Bush apologist. It think he used 911 to justify something he wanted to do anyway.
I ask two questions (in general, not of you): "If flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, what happened to flight 77?". "If flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, what did?" There is evidence that a plane slammed into the Pentagon. There is further evidence from eyewitness accounts that it was a passenger airplane. There is further evidence on the ground that it was a passenger airplane. Folks can choose to believe that or not. There is no evidence that anything, other than what was reported, happened to flight 77. There are seemingly only three explanations as to what would have happened to it if it was not the object that slammed into the Pentagon: 1. It crashed elsewhere No reports of this - eyewitness or otherwise 2. It was shot down No reports of this - eyewitness or otherwise 3. It safely landed (or never took off) and all passengers are involved in a massive coverup. If any of the above 3 explanations could be proven, then it would certainly indicate a massive deception and the "conspiracy theory" (for lack of a better phrase) would no longer be a theory. Until it is proven that something else happened to flight 77, I will choose to believe (after reading/viewing official, unofficial and alternative evidence/explanations) the official government and eyewitness accounts that a passenger plane flown by suicidal, murdering, madmen crashed into the Pentagon.
From the Manhattan Project to the Stealth fighter the U.S. government has successfully kept secrets from the public when there were 1000's of government and military employees involved. In order to carry out a huge covert operation as described it is not necessary that large numbers of people see the big picture. In fact it is just the opposite. Like a jig saw puzzles many many parts never see any more than what is right before them. A Technician in Tennessee in 1943 is refining uranium ore without any knowledge of atomic bombs, or his own culpability in its deployment. The government routinely protects itself from internal investigation or scrutiny by signed secrecy oaths and legal security agreements. And government employees don't ask questions. Much of what happens can be unclear and even unknown to those involved the closest except for those at the highest level with the big picture before them. For everyone else there are 'explanations' that are blindly accepted. Those who don't accept them are either debunked, derailed, or dead. The NSA, CIA and FBI take these measures to further extremes. Researchers who start to question the official explanation when things don't add up are branded 'conspiracy theorists'. Thus the majority of the population knows that they are 'nuts' with an agenda.
I think you are debating what is the hardest to explain. I can not see any reason to believe that flight 77 didn't hit the pentagon. But the physical evidence is suspect. The real story of what happened on 9-11 didn't occur at the pentagon but at the WTC twin towers. You really need to read the book (one more time) "Crossing the Rubicon"
Well said - and quite frightening. I think what bothers me about Cesar's post is the assertion that the holocaust cover-up in Germany required an overbearing government with complete control. When, in reality, all it really required was a group of dedicated fanatics, unquestioning military personnel (brainwashed almost), and a public unwilling to question evidence to the contrary.
Part of the problem I have is that most of the physical evidence was destroyed or taken away without any analysis. Videos were seized and never viewed. The actions taken by the government give off the appearance of a cover up. If there was nothing to cover up, why wasn't there a more public and open investigation. We have only been shown what the government wants us to see.
The only pictures I have seen of debris are that of some landing gear. If there are others please give me a link I would like to see that. That would answer one of the questions I have. Some of my problems and if anyone can answer these you have my full attention: How come there is was little debris outside the pentagon? How come there is damage by the wings the aircraft to the pentagon? How come the fires where not anywhere so small considering all that jet fuel? How come the FBI has not released the videos of the plane on approach? How come the pilot of the plane didn't dive the plane down onto the pentagon rather than circling around and having to do some pretty amazing bit of flying to achieve? Skimming a freeway then dropping a jumbo jet to within 2ft of the ground is some amazing flying for pilot much less someone with minimal time in a simulator. After the plane goes through all those rings of the building creating those circular holes where is the debris from that? Just some things that bother me.
Well I guess since all the evidence was seized and is still secret it is a cover up. But we trust them don't we?
Well if the debate is wheter flight 77 hit the pentagon or not, could it be a possibility that it didn't hit and the government ordered that plane to crash in the ocean as a decoy? Just an idea that popped out of my head since some people just have to believe that flight 77 hit it because they don't know what happened to it...if the conspiracist believe that the government could blow up three buildings with people in them, then what's a plane with people to them?
Maybe it is better we don't know. What would we do if the worst was true? None of us are hardly John Adams or Patrick Henry material. We are talking about our own government complicit in the murder of its own citizens. Maybe it is far better we don't know any more than we do.
This book... is an interesting one primarily for the facts, photos, and documents cited. From Kirkus reviews (via Amazon)... His thesis, particularly the part about Germans being primed for eliminationist anti-semitism, seems a bit overblown, but again, the facts, photos, and documents prove beyond much doubt that many, many Germans willingly participated and did not do so because of orders or threats. As for me, this is the best thing on Hitler I've read recently... more of a historiography, but interesting and easily read...
I remember in Psychology class learning about the Milgram experiment where it tests the obedience of subjects under authority. Basically people do actions even though they may consciously know it might be ethically wrong, but still do it under authority. Here's more on the experiment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
Also the experiment has been linked numerously to the Holocause and why the Germans could do what they were doing..
Interesting - I've read a whole lot on this and I've never come across this book - I'll check it out. That being said, I don't think I ever claimed that no "ordinary germans" were involved. But -- I have a lot of family in Germany, and I can tell you from personal accounts that this was not simply a "germanic attitude/trait". As an aside, it provokes an interesting parallel to american movements post 9/11...
rimrocker -- did you read "ordinary men?" i think that was the name of it. but it talked about how butchers and bakers and candelstick makers were among the ones pulling the trigger on women and children. how tough that was for so many. how they'd get really drunk to be able to do it. some would go off and throw up. but they were absolutely compelled to do so under order. the depths of the human heart. ugh.
