Amare is a cut above Lee. This is like saying Pau Gasol was better than prime Tim Duncan because their stats were similar. Watch the games...they reveal the truth.
i think yao and amare impact the game more only in the sense that they are skilled enough on offense to be a go-to guy. they can pretty much always find a good shot for themseves. this gives amare his only advantage over lee. in amare's case, i'm not sure that's a great enough advantage to justify such a huge salary differential. then when you consider durability, i think the overall scale starts to tip towards lee. in yao's case, he is also able to anchor a defense. even though he's a bit of a liability in a P&R, he can shut down the paint. that plus being a go-to guy give yao a big skills advantage over lee... big enough to justify the salary difference because he's an all star on both ends of the floor. so i would still want yao over lee, but i think lee and amare is a tossup... and because it's a tossup IMO i would take the less expensive and more durable option.
Bigger name? There's a BIG reason why Amare has the BIGGER name. He's been doin the damn thing for the past 8 years. He's earned it. David Lee just had a breakout year playing for a Knicks teams where his stats were inflated because they literally had no other player that are really worth talkin about. If David Lee can put up 20/10 or close to it for the next 2, 3, 4+ years then lets talk. I think a lot of people have a lot of hate/bitterness towards Amare on this board because of his antics when he first came into the league and his competition with Yao for ROY and personal battles to up Yao etc. Furthermore, David Lee is loved by many on this board for fair reason. He's a hard worker, blue collar type of guy who hustles and does a bit of everything and had a great year. He puts up nice numbers but is he really an impact player? I don't think so. Amare Stoudemire is a legit #2 option. David Lee is NOT. He's a solid #3 option. Ideally if you want a championship team... Stoudemire would be bumped to #3 option and David Lee would be option 4 or 5. Lets play a little game here..... If we were to compare big men which one does not fit? A) David Lee B) Yao Ming C) Dwight Howard D) Amare Stoudemire You would think the obvious answer is A. But I guess on this board it's not so obvious. We can and have made legit comparisons to Yao vs. Amare on this board. We've also made comparisons to Yao vs Dwight on this board. Amare and Dwight have been compared, rightfully so. Can you honestly tell me a comparison between Lee vs. Yao or Lee vs. Dwight Howard should exist? I hope your answer is NO. And you can't compare Lee to those guys cause they're not on either Yao or Dwight's level. However, Amare IS. As I originally stated.... Amare is in a different class compared to David Lee.
You're argument is flawed. I'm gonna call you out... just admit it you don't like Amare. Is Yao more durable than Amare? Hell no. You completely look past Yao's durability issues and injury history but you make a huge deal out of Amare's. Why?
How much more? I don't think Lee will make more than 12 mill a year, remember Boozer is also a FA and Minny is shopping Al Jefferson, yet another pf. Add to that the big man heavy draft the NBA just had and how many teams are on the market for a big man? Lee's max value will top out at 12 mil a year, which is definitely less than the max Amare will get. Smoothie is right, if its a choice between these two Amare isn't that big a difference from Lee. Actually I would go a step further and say that Lee is better, simply because he can function without the Nash handicap and isn't a primadonna like Amare. Not to mention he doesn't have eye damage, knee damage and is younger than Amare to boot. "Impact" player whatever isn't substantiated by evidence, I guess you hear the impact of his dunks? What has been shown though is that Amare without Nash is like a fish out of water, he doesn't know how to get close enough to put the ball in the hoop, while without Amare PHX still managed to get a respectable record in the league. Textbook case is Shawn Marion. Was unable to do anything in PHX before Nash got there, became "beastly" when Nash got there, and became scrub again after he left Nash. What makes amare different from Marion? He feeds on Nash's play even more than Marion lol, who's he gonna pick and roll with? Sergio Rodriguez?
We're comparing Amare to David Lee, not Yao Ming. His point was that Amare has durability issues in comparison to David Lee.
Dude....check this out: Amare Pre-Nash 20.6 PPG 0.475 FG% 9 rebs Amare Post-Nash (the year he arrived): 26 PPG 0.559 FG% 8.9 rebs Lee last year 20.2 pts 0.545 FG% 11.1 rebs You can really compare Amare pre Nash and Lee last year because they played the exact same system before, i.e. a D'Antoni system without Nash. You can see that Amare always has trouble creating his own shot, and Nash arriving increased his pts by 5.4 pts and an 8.4% increase in FG percentage. And that's with Amare playing with JJ, Marion and Starbury, while Lee played with guys I don't even know. You'd think with better teammates he'd score more efficiently, and not less.
Dude.... check this out: Nash Pre-Amare 8.8 assists per game Nash Post-Amare (the year he arrived): 11.5 assists per game WON MVP My point? Amare has to be credited for Nash's success because he was the second best if not first at least equally important to the Suns Western conference Finals run/ Nash winning MVP. Thanks for playing.
Phoenix Suns know something, they only offered $71 million (five years) but they didnt want to give the 4th and 5th year guaranteed, and it would be depending of the minutes he would have played in the first three seasons. The Heat also had concerns about Amar'e injuries, so they didnt want to pursue him. So I think the Knicks made a huge gamble, by giving him the 5 years guaranteed, especially after the third year.
1. Durability is absolutely an EXTREMELY important measure of how valuable a player is. This is not a debatable point. What is debatable is if there is reason to believe David Lee will be more durable than Stoudemire in the future. The evidence suggests he will be, but frankly most of Stoudemire's injuries have been of the "freak" variety. 2. David Lee is a better rebounder than Stoudemire. This is not debatable. 3. Though Lee was the best scorer on the Knicks last year, his usage rate last year (which was the highest of his career) was still lower than Stoudemire's CAREER average. It's not like he was being force-fed every play. 4. Lee and Stoudemire are both great PNR players and among the top finishers in basketball. Lee's career FG% is an outstanding 0.557 (0.545 last year), higher than Stoudemire's career FG% (0.544, 0.557 last year). Lee is a superior passer. Stoudemire is considerably more athletic, and a slightly better jumpshooter. Ultimately, it's Stoudemire's terrific ability to get to the FT line that sets him apart from Lee as a scorer, but as overall offensive players, they are very close. 5. Lee is a much, much better help defender than Stoudemire (he guards the PNR VERY well), and is a tougher post defender. Stoudemire's length and mobility render him a more effective defender in face-up isos, but despite his greater athleticism and shotblocking ability, he is not an asset defensively. Lee is overmatched guarding centers, but he is more than serviceable against PFs. 6. LOL at people trying to attribute Lee's breakout to D'Antoni's fun and gun system as the reason for Lee's breakout. Yeah, more minutes and a higher usage rate had nothing to do with it. Seriously, Lee's not a big name like Stoudemire, but they're not particularly far apart in terms of value. You could make the argument that Lee might even be just as effective. Stoudemire's a better scorer (and a slightly better all-around offensive player) because he gets to the FT line with greater frequency and has a better jumper. Lee is a superior rebounder, passer, and defender, all by a considerable margin. It also remains to be seen how well Stoudemire will play without an elite PG. Oh, and you don't pay a player based on what they've done in the past or how big of a name they are. That's complete nonsense.
as i said, yao is an all star on both ends of the floor. he's a guy you can build around. he's well worth max money and then some. he, IMO is that much better than lee and amare that you have to deal with his durability issue because you can't get equal value for yao's on the court performance. since we are calling each other out (not that i wanted to get into it), i wrote to which you replied... which is a very long way of saying you think amare is better without providing any evidence beyond your own personal opinion. which is exactly what i said was going on. "amare is better because he is better." your multiple choice was basically a name recognition game... your saying lee's name doesn't fit with the others, while i've been saying people don't think he's better because he's not a big name. basically that quiz proves my point, because his numbers do fit in but his name doesn't. while trying to prove me wrong, you've confirmed both of my points, and then called me out for a flawed argument? now, i respect your opinion even if i disagree with it. all i've been asking for is evidence. i'm looking at stats, games played, and salary. 3 sets of hard numbers that seem to make lee a smarter option. you're playing sesame street games like "which one of these isn't the same?"
One thing that occured to me about Lee: Might he be left out in the cold after the free agency scramble? Lets say Bosh and Wade end up in Miami, Lebron in CLE, now Amare is in NY, Boozer goes to Chicago. What option does Lee have left? NJ? They said they think Favors has higher upside. So, lets say they don't want to overpay Lee. GS and Minny are said to be interested, but they don't have cap room, and that makes things harder. Besides, who knows what these teams are willing to pay.
In this summer of insanity, David Lee will get overpaid like everyone else. If Drew Gooden gets $32 million guaranteed, David Lee will probably get twice that much. If he gets left out, it's because he and his agent are stupid.
Good point. If Lee is such an impact player and makes that big of a difference he would be much more coveted. Lots of players past and present put up big numbers but they're not impact players. Players like Antoine Walker and Vin Baker of the past and present players like David West and Antawn Jamison come to mind when I think of David Lee. He's a solid player and puts up good numbers but he's just not an impact player that can lead a team as option 2 like Amare can. I like David Lee. I like him a lot... As I said he's crafty, fairly athletic, blue collar, hustles, hard worker, makes the most out of his god given talent and I love left handed players but he's just not as good as Amare. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
You would be surprised at how many stupid people there are who dont want guranteed cash in their pockets.
I don't accept this at all. This summer is a unique, golden opportunity of a gravy train for NBA free agents. David Lee wants to maximize his money just like everyone else. He's not the youngest guy out there and he'll never have this opportunity again. If he doesn't strike a deal shortly after LeBron/Wade/Bosh/etc make their choices and ends up on the outside looking in, he can blame himself for overreaching.
Amare is not an impact player either. The team will win only 25-35 games, unless they get Lebron or Wade, true impact players.
