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Am I missing something here, Shaq, Dream, Moses > Tim Duncan

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by plutoblue11, Dec 23, 2011.

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  1. plutoblue11

    plutoblue11 Member

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    Right now, I am getting sort of flamed on another board, because I said Tim Duncan doesn't compare as favorably with the greatest centers of all time, instead of the greatest power forwards.

    My biggest point being, personally I do not think Duncan was as dominant as the greatest centers of all time - Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Moses, Shaq, and definitely Olajuwon. One poster pulled the first three, out said, Duncan compares favorably and has better statistics and more titles.

    I argued you cannot compare those things, or even the title count. Because, they are mostly different eras with different teams (stronger or weak). With Duncan, he's played with a really good franchise for most of his career, you cannot say that about Hakeem and Malone.

    Most of points being that Tim Duncan has played against weaker big men in this era, while I'm not entirely sure his legacy would be the same, if played most of his career, during the 80s and 90s.

    Even with Olajuwon, I am trying to tell them, that Duncan lacks athleticism and versatility of Olajuwon's overall game, the best comparison, I could make is KG on some super potent, uprgraded HGH. Even in his prime, I do not think Duncan could guard Amare or Dirk, while I think Olajuwon would give both of them alot of trouble. With Olajuwon dominating them or one of their sub-par centers, on the other end.

    With Shaq, Duncan, very rarely took him on one on one (in his prime), as he was simply too strong for Duncan, that was most of David Robinson's responsibility, and Rasho Nesterovic, briefly.

    In Moses's favor, he impacted the game a little more than Duncan, slightly weaker defender, but more explosive on offense and a monster on the boards. While, I do not think Tim Duncan could have the kind of success, that Malone had against other great centers.

    My last point, mostly being that Duncan compares more favorably to Karl Malone, Bob Pettit, Kevin McHale, Chris Webber, Elvin Hayes, Jerry Lucas, Dirk Nowitzki, and with other power forwards, more so than the greatest centers. I feel like Duncan never dominated, like Shaq, Olajuwon, Wilt, or Moses. It's even suspect for me to say that he's a better player than David Robinson or even .. . Patrick Ewing.


    The Duncan-defenders are saying that I am underrating him, or only slighting him because he plays for San Antonio and because I do not understand textbook basketball. Basically, I am not giving him a fair shot.


    Quotes from Duncan defenders:

    Shaq vs Duncan head to head:

    Regular season
    Shaq - 21.7 pts 10.6 rbs 1.7 asts 2.7 blks 18 wins
    Tim - 22.0 pts 12.1 rbs 2.7 asts 1.4 blks 14 wins

    Playoffs
    Shaq - 22.4 pts 12.8 rbs 2.2 asts 2.8 blks 15 wins
    Tim - 25.6 pts 13.0 rbs 3.8 asts 2.4 blks 15 wins

    ...common perception is that Shaq dominated Duncan is not true. No doubt Shaq in his prime was unbelievable, however, if all that coverage, dunks with screams, and talk don't equate to more championships, then what is the point?

    Duncan will be valued lower just based on the "boring" way he went about his business ...even though in the end, he did as much and accomplished as much (maybe more) as all of these guy

    Impact only has meaning if it comes with results.

    Regular season:

    Malone - 20.3 pts 12.3 rbs 1.3 asts 1.3 blks ..495 shooting
    Hakeem - 21.8 pts 11.1 rbs 2.5 asts 3.1 blks .512 shooting
    Shaq - 23.7 pts 10.9 rbs 2.5 asts 2.3 blks .582 shooting
    Timmy - 20.6 pts 11.4 rbs 3.1 asts 2.3 blks .508 shooting

    Playoffs:

    Malone - 22.1 pts 14.0 rbs 1.5 asts 1.6 blks .487 shooting 1 FMVP 3 MVP
    Hakeem - 25.9 pts 11.2 rbs 3.2 asts 3.3 blks .528 shooting 2 FMVP 1 MVP
    Shaq - 24.3 pts 11.6 rbs 2.7 asts 2.1 blks .563 shooting 3 FMVP 1 MVP
    Timmy - 22.7 pts 12.4 rbs 3.4 asts 2.6 blks .502 shooting 3 FMVP 2 MVP

    I would say you could compare these guys pretty easily...

    You just think that because you see that on ESPN and the other players are flashier

    Duncan has the championships and accomplishments
     
    #1 plutoblue11, Dec 23, 2011
  2. supdudes

    supdudes Member

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    Shaq and Hakeem no doubt. Moses idk...

    And honestly Duncan didn't influence the game as much even though he has all the achievements to be called a great
     
    #2 supdudes, Dec 23, 2011
  3. valorita

    valorita Member

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    shaq respects duncan. Robinson respects timmy. Popovich gives thanks for mr fundamental. Point is... Game recognizes game.
     
    #3 valorita, Dec 23, 2011
    1 person likes this.
  4. what

    what Member

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    duncan was a beast. he is in their class. you can put them in a hat and shake them as to the order, but duncan was all business. He was 10 times the defender that shaq was, he and hakeem were close as defenders. shaq was the more dominant offensive force, dream was more graceful, tim had slightly more range than hakeem.

    you can make a case for any one of them, honestly.
     
    #4 what, Dec 23, 2011
  5. Relentless

    Relentless Member

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    Duncan is a great player.

    Thing I remember most about him is his touch off the glass
     
    #5 Relentless, Dec 23, 2011
  6. VBG

    VBG Member

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    While I agree that there weren't many great centers in this decade there were definitely a lot of great PFs. Garnett, Dirk, end of Karl Malone, Chris Webber, Rasheed Wallace, Pau Gasol.
     
    #6 VBG, Dec 23, 2011
  7. plutoblue11

    plutoblue11 Member

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    Again, I am not slighting Tim Duncan, as I've said many times, he's the greatest power forward ever, though I wouldn't say without question, because Malone, Pettit, Barkley, McHale, and others were pretty good. My point being he's closer to these players, than Shaq and Olajuwon with Moses.

    He simply did not dominant teams, the same way, especially in the playoffs and Finals. While, I think they are all a tad bit better, overall.
     
    #7 plutoblue11, Dec 23, 2011
  8. valorita

    valorita Member

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    Greatest Finals Performaces

    #3. Tim Duncan, San Antonio, 2003
    The single most underrated Finals performance of all time, hands down, belongs to Duncan in 2003.

    Relatively few viewers saw it because of the Spurs-Nets pairing, and because of the general consensus that the East was something of a minor league. But Duncan was unbelievable.

    Despite going up against two top-notch defensive players in Kenyon Martin and Dikembe Mutombo, and despite lacking a superstar teammate to deflect attention (Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili were just getting their feet wet, while David Robinson was on his way out), Duncan completely dominated. His averages of 24.2 points, 17.0 boards and 5.3 assists were impressive enough, but what really sealed the deal was his defense.

    Duncan averaged 5.3 blocks per game for the series, the most of any player since the merger, and was at his best in the clinching Game 6 as San Antonio rallied from an eight-point fourth-quarter deficit. He fell two blocks shy of a quadruple-double and forced the Nets' Martin into a 3-for-23 disaster from the floor. Overall, his 32.0 PER for the series is the second-best since the merger.

    San Antonio 4

    New Jersey 2

    DUNCAN'S STATS
    Points per game: 24.2
    Boards per game: 17.0
    Assists per game: 5.3
    PER: 32.0

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-3

    PWND
     
    #8 valorita, Dec 23, 2011
  9. Johndoe804

    Johndoe804 Member

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    Duncan is such a good Power Forward that he gets compared to Centers, and matches up with Centers. He's probably the best Power Forward of all time because he was able to affect the game in so many different ways. He dominated because there was so much he could do that you couldn't possibly defend him.
     
    #9 Johndoe804, Dec 23, 2011
  10. VBG

    VBG Member

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    Yeah sorry Duncan not dominating is quite ludicrous.
     
    #10 VBG, Dec 23, 2011
  11. pmac

    pmac Contributing Member

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    :confused:

    Hakeem had all of the same good fundamentals in terms of rotations/team defense/footwork AND he had elite athleticism. How are they close?
     
    #11 pmac, Dec 23, 2011
  12. what

    what Member

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    because im not an hakeem homer and recognize greatness in other players besides hakeem.
     
    #12 what, Dec 23, 2011
  13. dharocks

    dharocks Contributing Member

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    Robinson was a superior defensive player to Duncan.
     
    #13 dharocks, Dec 23, 2011
  14. apollo33

    apollo33 Member

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    Didn't he have a near quadruple double in the finals, hows that not domination, plus he's a power forward.
     
    #14 apollo33, Dec 23, 2011
  15. pmac

    pmac Contributing Member

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    Right, I didn't think you had an argument.

    And, he was a great player, one of the best ever. He just wasn't the type of defender Hakeem was.
     
    #15 pmac, Dec 23, 2011
  16. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    In the history of the nba there are 4 players with more all-nba selections that TD. 7 players with more nba 1st team awards. 4 championships. He has won championship with completely different teams. He probably is the best or second best player of the post mj era. I would put him up with anyone.
     
    #16 Air Langhi, Dec 23, 2011
  17. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Duncan is a hall of gamer and arguably the greatest power forward ever. However, he is not as good as Olajuwon, Shaq or arguably David Robinson.

    Duncan was a very good defender but not like Robinson, and Olajuwon is on another level defensively. Shaq was just flat out dominant.
     
    #17 Nook, Dec 23, 2011
  18. Aleron

    Aleron Contributing Member

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    You can't really use shaq vs duncan h2h stats as Robinson played center for most of it, including the 5 years where only those 2 won titles.
     
    #18 Aleron, Dec 23, 2011
  19. Severe Rockets Fan

    Severe Rockets Fan Takin it one stage at a time...

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    Pwnd indeed...congrats on the drubbing of perhaps the worst team ever to make the finals...wow.

    I think Duncan is great, but this is probably the worst possible example to try and prove that.
     
    #19 Severe Rockets Fan, Dec 23, 2011
  20. plutoblue11

    plutoblue11 Member

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    He simply did not dominant teams, the same way, especially in the playoffs and Finals.

    I never said he wasn't dominant, just no so much as Shaq and Olajuwon.
     
    #20 plutoblue11, Dec 23, 2011
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