Alvin Williams to the Rockets now a possibility?

Yeah I would hope that the trade included Moochie and Rice some how, but I'm homer so what can you expect.

 

If AW was a slightly better shooter, he would be a perfect fit.

I think with Yao on the inside, coupled with zone tendencies by the D, it is important to have someone who can stick the outside shoot on a consistant basis (lets not forget that we already have one mediocre outside shooter in JP).

 

If Toronto picks T.J., and then wants to dump Williams' salary, how about Rice for Williams + Hakeem's contract?

 

AW is a good shooter. He shot 44% (FG) and 33% (FT) while on a crappy team. In fact as a spot up shooter, I think he is just a tad worse than Mobley. There major difference offensely is AW can't beat guys off the dribble, break down the defense, and get the fouls that Cat can, though SF is better than either one at this, thus we don't get the full benefit of Cat's skill in this regard.

Also, remember AW is 6th in the league in A/TO. That is outstanding. SF and CM are both pretty bad in this for their positions. Thus it isn't like any old SG can just turn into an AW with a flip of a switch--AW's discipline, good ball handling, and understanding for where his teammates will be on the floor is outstanding and not simple to pick up even if the desire is there to do so.

I am a Cat fan for sure. I think he is really understimated by many on this board. But AW does some things the Rockets need than neither Cat, SF or any other Rocket seem adept at (floor understanding, discipline). That said I do have mixed feelings about a Cat for AW+ trade. a) because Cat & SF may get better at many of the things AW does so well with a new coach and b) Cat has been more of a workhorse (heavy minutes) than AW has proven.

Thus I am fine standing pat for now. But if the same problems appear through midseason I say pull the trigger on a deal like. One other thought I had is a 3-way trade with Posey, AW and some 3rd team (Toronto does not need a 3/2 at all). But I don't know, AW, SF, & Cat are awefully small if all are on the court at the same time, and a combination of AW, SF and JP would be much better defensively w/o losing too much offensively if JP's shot keeps on coming around.

I guess I am still intruiged by AW as a Rocket and perhaps for Mobley (if we also get minor additional comp)--but with the JVG takeover I view it as far less critical as I did last year. Maybe seeing if the Rapors would bite for Cato or Posey (3way) is the way to go.

 

Verse, again, super reply. Really enjoying this.

I guess it's a question of semantics. I've always attempted to make a distinction between "tweener" and "combo." Williamson to me is and always has been a "tweener." He has a PF's game in a SF's body. He actually only has a SF's height. Like I said in my previous post, "tweeners" usually end up as backups if they make it at all... you hardly see a tweener as a starter because they are easily exploited on defense in some way. The combo player can do things in multiple positions without any (many) liabilities. Alvin Williams has the skills of both a prototypical 1 and prototypical 2. He might not have the best skills, but he nevertheless has the skills. On the otherhand, a tweener like Corliss Williamson only has the skills of a 4 even though his position is a 3. As a reserve, he is less likely to face a player who can exploit him on the defensive end.

We are actually not disagreeing at all. I want to keep Mobley and get Williams at the same time. I'd keep Mobley as the starter, but cut his minutes from 43 to 34-35. I'd use Williams as the backup and play him 30 minutes. I don't know that Williams/Francis is better than Mobley/Francis either. It's the idea that appeals to me. Francis is a special talent with awesome scoring and above average passing abilities. Mobley is a pure scorer with average at best pass ability. As good as Mobley is at putting the ball into the basket, the scaring thing about Francis is that he is probably better at it. In that way I don't see them as complementary players. I see Williams, a steady player with solid passing and scoring ability as very complementary to Steve. Getting Williams gives the Rockets someone who will set up his teammates or score. I think he'd work well with Mobley too in a strictly ball distributor role.

It could be, and I mean, potentially, great with Williams. Francis could play with more freedom, and go into Kobe-mode without having to worry about setting his teammates up 100% of the time. Again, Williams would be the guard with the passing slant, and Francis the one with the scoring slant. Both of them would continue to pick up 5-7 assists a game that they have been. Steve's FG% would go up because he'd someone else looking to set him up rather than depending on himself to create scoring opportunites. His TOs would go down because it wouldn't be neccessary for him to handle the ball as much as he previously had. It would be interesting to see it played out. All I know is that Williams/Francis or Williams/Mobley is 50 million times better than Moochie/Francis or Moochie/Mobley.

And I'm all for patience in a new system. We really don't know what JVG is going to do to the offense when he gets here... we can assume this and that, but JVG is a smart man, and we won't really know anything till we see it in action.

Yep, he lacks the burning speed of a prototypical 1, but he is quick. With the Rockets, he'd guard 2s playing with Steve and 1s playing with the Cat. Williams also has a vastly improved jump shot. He'll knock down shots for you.

Well, it's all about interpretation here... and I respect yours. I feel the examples you use above are different roles that he has played, but do not support him being versatile... You mention skill set later so I'll talk more about it then. Even though he played the 1 as a rookie, it was maybe more about experimentation than being the right position for him. He was a rookie, and the Rockets may have been trying to figure out what to do with him. Did he play SG or PG in college? I think he played SG. Hell, who could have expected that he'd turn out to be the incredible scorer that he is? And him playing the 3 has not really been the 3... those line ups were really 3 guard sets on the floor at the same time to exploit matchups and get more quickness on the floor. Imo, matching up against a SF for 5 minutes at the end of game does not qualify Mobley has being versatile enough to "play the 3." He after all is only 6"4'. On a night in night out basis your team would be hurt with Mobley strictly at the 3.

As far as being a defensive stopper, man, did he shut down Iverson in a game at end of last season. It was awesome. But being a defensive stopper is just a role, and Mobley is better than that. Defense is simply one facet of his game that he has improved tremendously on. Mobley is evolving into a complete player... playing solid defense is just another part of being a complete player, not a sign of versatility. Labels like "defensive stopper" are often times used on players who have holes in their games. Bruce Bowen is an example. Kobe Bryant is as good if not a better defender than Bowen, yet Bruce Bowen is the one who is always called a "defensive stopper." Yes, he plays great defense, but part of the reason why he is called a "defensive stopper" is because his offensive game is so crappy. If you asked Mobley how he felt about being called a "defensive stopper," I bet he'd answer that it's great to get recognition for his defense, but that it's only part of his game and that he is trying to become a complete player. If you asked Bowen the same question, he might answer that "he takes pride in his defense, and he relishes the fact that it is his role to shut down the opposing team's #1 scoring option." There is a difference. Complete players are noted for their skills in all aspects of the game, and Mobley, with every passing year, is getting to that point.

I'll agree here with a caveat. I was never a fan of Rudy's offensive "systems" (and I use that term very loosely... SF or Cat going 1 on 1 while the other 4 guys stand around does not really constitute a system). Maybe he hasn't had the chance to show it yet, but up until this point he has shown me that he is better at scoring when the ball starts out in his hands compared to when someone is feeding him for an open shot (with scoring on the fastbreak as the exception). He needs to work on the catch and shoot, getting in position to score. The guy can flat out score with guys draped all over him. Not many guys in the league can do that... I'd just like to see him score more in the flow of the offense. When you take shots that aren't in the flow of the offense, even when you score, it can have an adverse affect on the way the team executes offensively. Which can lead to a lack of execution defensively. It can throw the pace of your team off, get guys out of sync... players feel like they aren't involved. When the Rockets were into their heavy ISO mode before Yao got here, I bet some of the other players were wondering "Why the hell am I even out here..." as they were watching Steve or Cuttino go 1 on 1. I agree largely with your assessment of Cuttino being a "black hole" and Rudy's system as the cause. We'll have to see if he ceases being one with JVG as the coach.

When I think of "versatility", I think not in terms of fundamental skills like ballhandling or passing, but I think of those fundamental skills in the context of different positions. Physical attributes like height, weight, quickness, and speed also come into play. It's really about a player's fundamental skills coupled with his physical attributes that determine how versatile a player is. 3 players instantly come to mind when I think of versatility - Dirk Nowitzki (my favorite player), KG, and Lamar Odom. Another guy is (was?) Penny Hardaway.

KG and Dirk are the most versatile players in the game today. KG, at 6"11', can play the 3, 4 or 5. He can guard every position. He has the range and ball handling of a SG. The post moves of a 4 or 5. Dirk can play and has played SF, PF, and C for stretches of a season. He has the height of a C, just enough bulk to play C, the ball handling skills of a SF, the shooting skills of a SG, the post up ability of a PF. Odom, at 6"10', has the height of a PF, and the passing ability of a PG. He is listed as a SF but can really play 4 positions on the floor.

So in the example of Alvin Williams... he has a shooting guard's height, can defend PGs and has the passing ability of a PG. To me, it's his height coupled with his passing skills that qualifies his versatility. He is probably not a starting shooting guard for most teams, and for most teams probably not a long term solution at PG either (which is why the Raptors are looking to draft T.J. Ford). Most teams. However, in the right scheme, he could be very effective in the short term or long term. Playing with another combo guard like Steve just seems like a good fit to me, for next year or 5 years down the road.

For a SG, Mobley has all the following: height, weight, speed, quickness, ballhandling, passing, defense, adequate shooting, etc... But as a PG or SF, does he have those things? He hasn't shown me that he has the passing ability of a PG. He doesn't have the height of a SF. Some might say he doesn't even have the prototypical 6"6' height of a SG. He doesn't have any semblence of a post up game that is common among the league's SFs. He doesn't have much length. His movements are quick, compact, explosive. He kills you with his explosiveness. He is a great SG in a SG's body, and there is nothing wrong with that. In my book, it doesn't equal versatility, and we can debate this until the cows come home.

This is all for fun, for discussion's sake. In the end, Mobley is still an excellent player, and we both agree that getting Williams while keeping Mobley would be incredible for the Rockets. Much better than what we have right now.

 

Codell, with you 100%. To me Alvin would be just another part of the puzzle. If we had Alvin Williams and a young Glen Rice, I'd be talking about a championship next year. Instead, with an old Glen Rice, I'm talking about the Rockets needing a young Glen Rice.

Michael Redd would be nice. So would Rashard Lewis. Who did we get instead of Lewis? Bryce Drew? Some Turkish dude? Oh the humanity. And James Posey, he's beyond mediocre, if there is such a thing.

 

The big difference of opinion I have, is I have Mobley as a pure 2. The reason he was a 2nd rounder was his size, I'll explain more.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but as far as PG abilities, Mobley vs. Alvin Williams isn't even all that close. If you say Carter is the playmaker on the Toronto team instead of Williams, it was even moreso the case the one year Mobley played "point guard". Pippen was the playmaker, and the offense was run by Charles and Hakeem. Keep in mind, Mobley averaged an AST/TO ratio of 1.55 his year of point guard and a total of 2.5 assists per game. If Williams' 5+ assists per game are consider inadequate, with his VERY good 3.25 AST/TO, what does that say about Mobley's job as a PG?

I see Williams ability to slide to the 2 better than Mobley's ability to play the 1. Further, I'm not fully grasping this "Mobley can also play the 3". Are you referring to those few minutes a game where we played Moochie-Francis-Mobley? Mobley forced Shandon to the 3 slot more than he played the 3. Williams is at least the physical equal of Mobley; in those terms of ability to slide up a slot, I don't see it as a problem for Williams either.

I don't think it can be argued that Mobley can play the 3 any more than that Rice or Walt Williams is a power forward, or that Eddie Griffin is a center.

I think a non-mistake prone backcourt mate for Francis- whether you classify him as a 1 or a 2 is definite need for this team. While Mobley has filled a lot of roles (and personally, I think the "defensive stopper" one is WAY overstated on this board) he has never shown the ability to hold down TOs. Williams has a better than 3/1 AST/TO for his CAREER. Mobley's best season in that category was his rookie year, wih an AST/TO ratio of 1.55. Neither Francis nor Mobley can claim a single season when they had 2 assists per turnover. Williams has done it in each of his last 5 seasons.

This said, Mobley straight up is a greater talent than Williams. And I definitely would like to see a versatile trio of Francis-Mobley-Williams in the backcourt, but I don't see getting Williams as a possibility unless Mobley is part of the deal.

 

Good assessment.

 

Longest posts ever in continuation! Big day in Houston.....baseball..basketball.....ClutchCity.

Well I agree with NIKEstrad.

I'd love to have all 3 together on the Rockets....but we would probably have to give up Mobley to get Williams...

But they are supposedly getting TJ Ford.

Maybe we can get him..

They need help in frontcourt...Cato and Taylor

 

But who will we have to back up Yao? Cato was very effective this past season as the backup C and almost, just almost made me forget all the bad things I thought about him.

 

I don't know about William and Williams, man that sounds like a PI Law firm. Cat just got used to Iso games but he was better of coming of the bench, a six man! JVG is not ready to give him away for a point guard and center.

Speaking of center, I think Cato is just starting to matured in the game. other words Cat & Cato are for keeps, since we got a defensive coach type of thing deal!

 

What happened to Glen Rice?

 

Slim Shady, look what you started... I didn't realize my post went on foreverrr...