Im just not that excited to have Alvin Williams as our PG considering he averaged FEWER assists than Francis last year. I dont know why everyone is so hung up on him.
Hey...that sounded great. I like to hear that...but no proof..I like never watch the Raptors play. I love the idea of Steve, Cat, AND Williams. NOW THAT WOULD BE FANTASTIC. I would bench Mobley for Williams. Williams, Stevie, Posey, Eddie, and Yao. Moochie, Mobley, Nachbar or TMo, MoT, and Cato off the bench is great. I love that idea. But...I don't know who you would move...we have draft picks.
You gotta get NBA league pass! You can catch all the Raptors games you want (not that you'd want to). I don't know who the Rockets could move... Cato? The Raptors played Jelani McCoy at center last year, and I don't think they'd want to repeat that again.
Okay....well we don't know what Jeff Van Gundy wants. Maybe he doesn't want Steve to move to the 2...and maybe he admires Cuttino Mobley. But before all this coaching stuff occurred, some said that Steve should move to the off guard and Cuttino Mobley should be moved to the bench as a 6th man. We can always keep it how it already is...with Steve and Cat starting...because the offense should be run through Yao anyways. Maybe somehow Cuttino Mobley will change his attitude and stop shooting so much...but I don't think that's gonna happen, unless a miracle takes place. Also, if Cat was to come off the bench, I don't know how that would work, because Steve and Cat both play 40 minutes a game. And if we brought in another point guard like Alvin Williams...then there would be no time for Cuttino...but he should be playing. Cuttino can also be that tall guard that defends the harder assignment and acts as the point guard...but I don't think he can change his attitude to that....he needs his shots and stats. If you want to keep Cuttino Mobley and Kelvin Cato...maybe we can give them... Kelvin Cato OR Maurice Taylor, Glen Rice, and a future 1st round draft pick FOR Antonio Davis and Alvin Williams. I don't think that is too possible... I want Antonio Davis...because he is what we need. He is a good middle range shooter, he can dunk, he is a great defender and has some post moves, he is a good shotblocker, he is a fantastic rebounder, and he is strong. He is also from Texas! He cannot pass...and he is pretty old...and he also has a big contract..which expires one year earlier than Kelvin Cato's and Maurice Taylor's. I want Alvin Williams because he is a good defender, he is tall, he can steal balls because he is tall and very quick, he is a good passer and ballhandler, he can make 3 pointers, he has a good middle range shot. The only disadvantage is he cannot dunk! But Alvin Williams and Antonio Davis are what we need. Someone said previously that we were looking for veterans...before the coaching thing. Alvin Williams and Antonio Davis are both veterans that perfectly fit our needs. But if we could get them....I don't see how Mobley can fit in...because there aren't enough minutes....unless he only plays 25 minutes a game. And if we could get Antonio Davis, then we wouldn't need Kelvin Cato. Antonio Davis can play both power forward and center....he could play 24 minutes at power forward...and 12 minutes at center. Eddie could start or backup at power forward and play about 24 minutes a game. We wouldn't need Maurice Taylor anymore either. ALSO.....Jeff Van Gundy likes small rotations. I heard that he used a 6 man rotation at one point. I don't know how it would work with Alvin Williams, Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley, Moochie Norris, James Posey, Juaquin Hawkins, Eddie Griffin, Antonio Davis, Yao Ming, and Kelvin Cato.......somebody will be complaining about playing time. That's why we do.... Cuttino Mobley, Maurice Taylor, and Kelvin Cato FOR Antonio Davis, Alvin Williams, and a future 2nd round draft pick OR Voshon Lenard. I think this is very fair and the salaries match up. Cuttino Mobley is what they wanted. He can shoot.....gives them offense..and defense. He is the scorer from anywhere. He's a good finisher. He can handle the ball. He can steal. He is not a good passer or rebounder. Maurice Taylor is instant offense. He could do very well in the East versus smaller guys. He can dunk...he has a good inside game, he is a scorer. He cannot handle the ball...pass....block...steal....rebound....and he has a big contract. Kelvin Cato is the center that they need who can rebound and block shots and is energetic with intensity. Cato could do very well in the East as well. Mobley is much better than Williams. Davis is a little better than Taylor. Lenard is better than Cato. Voshon Lenard is quite old.......that's what we need. Veterans. He is a good 3 point shooter and that is what we need as well. He could be a good backup... TJ Ford/Rafer Alston Cuttino Mobley/Vince Carter Vince Carter/Morris Peterson Maurice Taylor/Jerome Williams Kelvin Cato/all the crappy centers that they have I think their starting lineup is very capable of scoring.....lots and lots of points. That would be a good team to me. Alvin Williams/Steve Francis/Moochie Norris Steve Francis/maybe Voshon Lenard/James Posey/Juaquin Hawkins James Posey/Bostjan Nachbar/Terence Morris/Glen Rice Antonio Davis/Eddie Griffin/Terence Morris Yao Ming/Antonio Davis/Jason Collier This team....well it's not as talented as the team we would have. Maybe we need the old team with Mobley and Taylor with JVG's offense.....cuz it's supposedly ISO and slow...so maybe we would need them. But our team would have two stars with a bunch of role players....good role players too. 2 big contracts are gone.....one big contract comes in which expires earlier than the 2 big contracts that are gone...and Glen Rice's expires after the season. This is why I wish Larry Brown came to Houston. Alvin Williams and Steve Francis....he would have known how to use them....James Posey just there...Yao Ming and Antonio Davis. But of course. The trade will never happen.. And we still have a very good team with Steve, Cuttino, James hopefully, Eddie, Yao, Moochie, Juaquin, Bostjan, Glen, Terence, Maurice, and Kelvin.
That team looks pretty good to me. I don't see what you are griping about unless you are not a fan of the Rocks. Alvin Williams would be nice, but not necessary. No other Raptor player is needed.
Well, Steve and Cat played the minutes they did because Moochie did such a bad job as the backup 1 and there was really no one to back up Cuttino at all. Rudy really had no choice because the Rockets were so thin in the backcourt. Mobley played 43 minutes/game and Stevie played 41... both numbers were way too high. Those are iron man numbers. It's ok if you don't make the playoffs and can go home and rest for an extra month every year, but playing that much will catch up to you either at the end of the season, during the playoffs, or 5 years down the road when your body begins to break down prematurely. The minutes add up. Both Cat and Francis should be playing around 37 minutes a game. I could see the Cat only playing 34-35 minutes. The difference of 6 minutes may not seem like much, but it can feel like a lifetime during the course of a full speed game. So if we do the math, from the 2 guard positions there are 96 minutes total. If Steve plays 37 and Cat 34, that is 71 minutes, which leaves 25 for Alvin. At the end of games if the Rockets go small, Alvin or the Cat could see some time at the 3, which could bump up Alvin's minutes. A lot of teams play their guys heavy, heavy minutes because they have no choice. Bringing in an Alvin Williams would reduce the load on Steve and Cuttino, which is better in the long run and short run. On a game to game basis, playing less minutes will give Steve and Cuttino the extra energy to execute effectively on offense and focus more on defense. It seemed like the Rockets sometimes went brain dead at the end of games last year... a tired body can lead to a tired mind, which leads to poor execution... and I still think Francis has it in him to be a quality on the ball defender. Cuttino is already solid. Both would be even better with more energy.
Bougus! All the Raptors trying to do is add Value to There Pick! Yeah TJ may have had and excellent workout; but it's all hype to get people to jump on TJ and make there pick more valuable than it really is.
Mobley played PG in his first year as a Rocket... There isn't a player out there that has had to change his game as often and as well as Mobley has done thus far. Who are we to say that he can't be that defensive stopper/3pt shooter that we've been drooling over since the coming of Yao? At the end of the year, he was the player that was shutting down players like Iverson and McGrady, players whom have been dubbed unstoppable by everyone in the league. Cat has been our point guard, our 6th man, our 2nd option, our leading scorer, and he even showed a nack for playing defense with a passion the las month of the season. Alvin Williams might be a big point guard, but he has no where as big a heart as Mobley.
Agree - this is the reason you will likely never see bad news from a workout. Teams can increase the value of their pick by highlighting candidates known positives and rebutting known deficiencies in a player's game. Like T.J.'s super shooting ability -just wait, when they workout Bosh, it will be, "we were blown away by his athletecism, which we expected, but wow he's such a mature young man...much more mature than we would have ever expected...kind of reminds us of Amare Stoudamire". Now there's a team out there salivating for the fourth pick - to pick either Ford or Bosh... You have to consider the source when you read player reviews, it's all games at this point, all games. Some team might even trade a future Olympic small forward and solid role players for a player who has hype, even though the that team hasn't worked out the player. Ok,Ok, I'm a staunch supporter of EG - but it's all games, hype but especially head games, at draft time.
rainmaker, you seem to be a reasonable person with a good grasp for the game. so, i have a hard time understanding how you believe alvin williams is more versatile than cat mobley. you stated that alvin is a combo guard - capable of playing the 1 or 2. but, cat has played the 1 (his entire rookie season), 2 (the majority of his career), and the 3 (when rudy ran the 3 guard lineup). of course, he couldn't play the 3 exclusively, but then again alvin could never play the 2 exclusively. so what gives? why is alvin more versatile? i've seen plenty of raptors games over the past 2-3 seasons. league pass is a great thing! and alvin, to me, is more of a true tweener than a true combo guard. combo guards play both positions effectively. tweeners are adequate at both positions. steve francis is a combo guard. allen iverson is a combo guard. gilbert arenas is a combo guard. alvin williams is a tweener at worst and a point guard at best. williams doesn't turn the ball over very much, true. but this can also be attributed to the fact that he is not the playmaker for toronto...vince carter is. also, what's the point in acquiring alvin williams? if we're going to acquire a point guard (for the purpose of moving steve to the 2), that point guard must be as good a ballhandler as steve is...or at least close to it. otherwise, we'll just see steve dominating the ball in the halfcourt anyway, right? this point guard has to be able penetrate and create for yao and steve. alvin has never been asked to do such a thing...at least not in the nba. why trade our most versatile, $$$-friendly, coach friendly player for someone that has never done what we'd be asking him to do? ray allen was asked who the most underrated player in the nba was. his immediate (and i do mean immediate) reaction: cuttino mobley. dude is a chameleon. he does whatever is asked of him. why not give him a chance to fail at a role before deciding he can't succeed at it? on cc.net: alvin williams = overrated cuttino mobley = underrated to the rest of the nba: alvin williams = adequate point guard cuttino mobley = underrated explosive scorer, with above average defense
All right......lol rainmaker. Well I don't really want him anymore if we have to give up Cat.. But we should still try to get him. But..I don't think the Raptors want anything that we have. They do want a center like Kelvin Cato and a power forward like Maurice Taylor though... Mo Taylor..Kelvin Cato...Moochie Norris....Alvin Williams...Antonio Davis...1st round pick....2nd round pick....
Is Williams worth that extra mill a yr and 2 yrs is the real question. If he is, then do it, but if not don't. Personally, I would prefer to see Posey at the 2 and Morris or Nachbar at the 3 to give the Rockets a longer team. Posey,Morris,Griffin and Yao at the 2,3,4,and 5 would be very,very long. Cat and Taylor off the bench when Francis and Yao needs rest would keep this team from extensive lulls. The biggest thing for JVG is to get players to except roles.
Hmm...that sounds good. But I don't think Morris is capable of starting...he could become a fine role player though. I guess he could. Just needs some confidence. And yes...that team would be very long. Steve Francis, James Posey, Bostjan or Terence, Eddie Griffin, and Yao Ming. But what are their roles? Our bench would be great...with Cato and hopefully a new Moochie as well. But our starters...I guess they are all capable of making open shots in the future. Pretty athletic. This would be a good alternative... Francis 38 minutes. Moochie 10 minutes. Posey 15 minutes. Mobley 33 minutes. Bostjan or Terence 30 minutes. Posey 18 minutes. Eddie 24 minutes. Mo 24 minutes. Yao 36 minutes. Cato 12 minutes.
leebigez, i like that lineup steve posey morris/nachbar (whoever wins the job in preseason) griffin yao if steve or yao is having a rough night offensively, either motay can come in for griff, or cat come come in for posey and bring the "o". steve = 1/2 posey = 2/3 morris = 3/4 griffin = 3/4 yao = 5 bench: mobley = 1/2/3 motay = 4/5 nachbar = 2/3 cato = 4/5 that's a solid 9 man rotation with offensive weapons on the bench.
Verse, great well thought out response. Like I said, I like Mobley... he's a very good player. I don't question his heart or talent at all. I don't know that I'd move him for Alvin. Talent-wise, I think he's better than Alvin. Underrated? Probably... I don't argue any of that. Scares the opposition? Definitely, he's a flamethrower waiting for the gas to be turned on. "Tweener" and "Combo" really are tough terms to get a consensus on. The way I see it, generally, "tweener" has a negative connotation... a player described as a tweener by NBA scouts usually has a body matched with skills not really suitable for any position. PF in a SF's body is the one I see a lot. Or SG in a PG's body, like Troy Bell coming up this year. Or a Troy Hudson. Tweeners usually, not always of course (see LJ or Barkley), but usually end up as backups. I think that Alvin Williams fits under your definition of a combo guard... he can play the 1 or 2 effectively, just without the talent and athleticism of Steve or the other guards you mentioned. He can do the same things those players can do, just not as well. He's steady and unspectacular. He is fundamentally sound passer... does not take a lot of risks. And Alvin Williams came up as a SG, not a PG. Back in the '98-'99 season, I believe the Rockets had Matt Maloney (go quakers), Brent Price, and Bryce Drew as the listed PGs... where are those guys now? Mobley playing out of position at PG was still better than what those guys could offer. Mobley has skills. But since the time since he exclusively started playing 2, you never hear anyone mention the word "versatility" to describe Mobley. Even though he has played some point and 3 at the end of games, his game is that of a true SG, and he is excellent at it. His assist numbers are paltry even by SG standards. I've heard the words "black hole" used to describe his game more than once. I simply believe that Mobley has true SG skills and that Alvin has the skill to play both SG and PG solidly especially with SF as a running mate. A player's skill set defines versatility, not neccesarily the position the coach puts him at on the floor. Should we trade Mobley? Nope, I'd like to see him and Alvin here. I'm all for bringing in Alvin without trading Mobley. Why bring in Alvin? We need a backup 1 and a backup 2. Moochie is not the answer at the 1 and the Hawk, Maddox, et al. are not answer at the 2. Why not get both positions filled with one player? More and more these days we are seeing the 2 PG, 2 combo guard, or 2 "shooting point guard" line ups. GP and Cassell, Bibby and Jackson, Nash and Nick... Having Francis and Williams would be interesting. Francis would be the guard with the scoring slant, Williams the steady guard with the passing slant. Both can score, both can pass. Steve would do more scoring, Alvin more passing. But they could feed off of each other. Who would be the PG, who would be the SG? Who cares? They both have enough skills to create for each other and the other players on the team. I saw plenty of Raptor games last year too... Morris Peterson, with his 37% shooting, probably took 2 assists away from Alvin every game last year. He also knows how to throw an entry pass. And when Mobley is in, either Francis or Williams could play more of a true PG role to set the Cat up. It would be as strong a 3 guard set as any in the league. I've never been in favor of getting a true point like Andre Miller to come play with Steve. Steve and the Rockets need Steve to have the ball in his hands a lot. Getting a true PG would disrupt that. Eventually though, with Yao in the picture now, Mobley's game will have to evolve even more, and I hope he can do it. He's great at penetrating, drawing fouls, finishing on the break, and shooting a variety mid range pull ups. However, all these points start with the ball in his hands. What he is not great at yet is doing some of the other things... moving without the ball, the catch and shoot, post up, turn around jumper. He is not a dead eye 3 pt shooter... his shooting form doesn't remind one of a classic jump shooter. My biggest beef with his game over the years is taking shots not in the flow of the offense... the early shot when people are not in rebounding position... the ISO plays where no one else touches the ball which leaves everyone out of position and out of sync. Some of it was out of a lack of coaching, some out of neccessity, and some out of his own bravado. Regardless, with Yao here now, that kind of play will have to take more of a backseat. I hope he can adjust. Unfortunately, I do think that the Cat will eventually get traded, maybe even for a less talented player who will fit in better with Yao. Rudy was a big Cuttino fan, but with JVG at the helm I see a lot of changes happening. The Rockets still need a dead eye shooter like a Michael Redd at the SG or SF position. Sorry for the long rant, I just love discussing basketball, especially with the likes of Verse. If you made it through all the garbage I just typed out, you probably like talking about basketball as much as I do. Feel free to shoot my points down. Cheers.
rainmaker: outstanding post. i'll respond to it in a little while...after i get a chance to eat!! go Quiznos!
yep. yep. generally speaking, a "tweener" is an unsuccesful "combo" player. when corliss williamson was "scorliss" williamsonhe was a tweener. now he's a "combo" player. this is where we begin to disagree. i don't think alvin williams is a terrible point guard. i just think that he's not a good enough guard to start on the rockets with steve francis. is williams/francis better than mobley/francis? i don't believe it is. at best, it's debatable; but even then it's a wiser choice to let mobley/francis try to play under JVG's system first. if they fail, i'd be much more receptive to moving mobley for an alvin williams + something else. also, you're right about alvin coming up as a shooting guard. it's funny that he's a better pg than he is a shooting guard, though. his shot is not consistent, and he lacks the burning speed to get by 2 guards on a regular basis. so, he's had to play the point - where he can use his size as an advantage. smart move. that's a testament to the shortminded nature of the average nba fan. as a shooting guard, mobley isn't labeled versatile. but if you look at his career as a whole, mobley is the very definition of "versatile". how much more versatile can you get (playing the 1, 2, & 3 spots; being a scorer, being a defender, coming off the bench, etc.)? his game, imo, is best suited to play the 2 guard, yes. but he has the ability to slide over to the 1 and 3 without hurting the team. as for him being a "black hole", i blame that on rudy and his system. the number one complaint with cuttino mobley as a rookie point guard was that he didn't shoot the ball enough! crazy, i know. but that proves to me that he is probably the most coachable player on the rockets. ask him to do something and guarantee that he'll get it done! in other words, mobley's a better SG than alvin williams is. and mobley has the ability to play the PG spot (proven it) at a level as adequate as alvin williams, right? and, yes, a player's skill set defines his versatility. no doubt about that. so let's check out their skill sets: mobes: ballhandling: check passing: willing to do so if asked defense: check shooting: check size: check the mythical bball IQ: nope williams ballhandling: check passing: check defense: check shooting: nope size: good enough to play the 1, and the 2 in spots the mythical bball IQ: check so, their skill sets are comparable, for sure, with the exception of mobes being big enough to play the 3 occasionally, and having a greater scoring proficiency. i'd love to have both of them - mobes and alvin williams. *********** i'm running out of time, but the rest of your post is largely about the way cuttino played as a starting SG under rudy. considering the malleability of the cat and the fact that he led the rockets in minutes played, i'm willing to bet rudy wanted him to shoot as much as he did.
verse/rainmaker... great posts guys. I like the way both of you think and I believe you both agree on the skill sets of Alvin and Cutino. I don't think that moving Mobley for Williams would be a good trade for the Rockets in that we don't get a huge change in production and we may damage some chemistry. But if we could get Alvin and keep Mobley now that would be sweet... you could have any two in at the guard postitions and we could compete with any team in the league. If you go small those three would be to score and run at will as well as play an acceptable zone defense. The only question is... could we keep them all happy with their minutes. Would I trade Cat for Williams - no Would I trade for Alvin Williams - in a heartbeat for anybody but Steve, Yao, Cat or Cato
...or griffin. never trade big for small...unless the small is significantly better or you have a better "big" on the team.
