1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

  2. LIVE WATCH EVENT
    REED SHEPPARD DEBUT -- come join Clutch and the gang as we're watching live the Rockets open up Summer League in Vegas Friday night at 6:30pm CT. It will be Reed Sheppard's debut as he, Cam Whitmore, Aj Griffin and others take on Bronny James and the Lakers.

    Rockets vs Lakers LIVE!

Alternative Democratic Models

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Rocket River, Sep 23, 2008.

  1. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Messages:
    62,112
    Likes Received:
    29,460
    Didn't want DeRail the other post
    but
    Since we seeking an alternative here. . .let's spit ball

    What are some other options available.

    Do you think people are smarter in local elections?
    Do you think we would get better quality of officials
    if we Elected our Electorical College Reps . .and then had them vote on the President?
    [Representative Democracy I beleive it is called . . .. ]

    The Major issue with that is the politicization of the College
    which IMO could not be worse than it is now
    If each Precinct voted for their own Electorial College Representative
    then
    The Representative voted for President . .. .

    Would that be better than what we have now?
    So . . while the people do not vote directly for president . . .[which they don't really do that now anyway] . . . their voice maybe better represented

    Rocket River
    just Spit balling. . . seeking ideas here
    Let's debate the pros and cons. . . .
    it is not like this will happen anyway
     
  2. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    34,360
    Likes Received:
    13,931
    You could have Congress elect a president instead of the Electoral College. But, I wouldn't try it with a 2-party system. And, you still have the general population voting for congressmen.

    Why are you trying to stick to democratic systems?

    We could do like Exxon and Microsoft and sell shares in the government. Then provide 1 vote per share. ( ;) )
     
  3. MoonDogg

    MoonDogg Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 1999
    Messages:
    5,167
    Likes Received:
    495
    The 2 party system is broke. It's the parties that run the government now as opposed to the person that's elected. Dismantle the republican and democratic party structures...that's the first step to real change.
     
  4. A_3PO

    A_3PO Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    42,875
    Likes Received:
    6,314
    RR, this subject could really get complicated. I believe what you propose could eventually lead to more fringe 3rd party candidates winning congressional seats. These small fry could then "sell" their vote for president to the highest bidding major party. I can't see this as a positive. The more power given to individual members of the House of Representatives, the more chaotic, unstable and corrupt our government would become.

    So count me in as one who likes directly electing our president. I also prefer the electoral college over using popular vote totals.

    There is a lot more to say on this and I'm only posting my initial reaction to your question. This is a great subject to spend 2-3-4 hours discussing in person.

    MoonDogg, how would you go about dismantling both party structures? Not as easy as you think. Nearly every major (legit) democracy in the world has evolved into a 2 party structure. The others "democracies" have only one viable party. How fragmented would you like it to be and how would we get there?
     
  5. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Messages:
    62,112
    Likes Received:
    29,460
    Well . . .my Proposal would be someone would not be a congressman
    but an Elected electoral College Member.

    Rocket River
     
  6. A_3PO

    A_3PO Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    42,875
    Likes Received:
    6,314
    OK, so you mean that the presidential candidates would be competing in 535 separate electoral college district elections instead of 50 state primaries? What this might do is further fragment the electoral process. Currently there are 10-15 "swing" states that determine the outcome. Depending on how these electoral districts are "gerrymandered", it could distill down to 20-25 of these tiny districts.
    One big problem is drawing the boundaries for these districts, which would be a gigantic, politicized mess. Maybe you could use congressional boundaries and toss two additional votes per state based on the popular statewide vote for president. Even so, I'm not sure I want a few congressional districts determining who wins the presidency.
     
  7. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    34,360
    Likes Received:
    13,931
    Except that I think in the proposal, the presidential candidate would not be campiagning to the citizenry but to the electoral college delegates who'd vote as they pleased. Those delegates in turn would have to campaign in their areas to get the job of choosing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    That (and my congressional example) sounds like an invitation for corruption. I think it is precisely to avoid corruption that we have the system we have.
     
  8. oldgunrules

    oldgunrules Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    34
    Rocket River (where is that by the way? ;) ) Thanks for quoting my post. I don't know what other systems might work better. I just noticed over the years that our democracy as it is does not necessarily yield best result. I think at one point people should leave the professionals to handle the jobs that only they know the best, and that even include the political system.
     
  9. MoonDogg

    MoonDogg Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 1999
    Messages:
    5,167
    Likes Received:
    495
    I think the only way it can ever be accomplished is with the rise of a strong third party which would weaken one or both. But then that third party is probably going to be as greedy as the other two. So the ultimate solution is no parties. But I don't think that will ever be allowed....



    Enlighten me though, folks...what do you believe the purpose of your political party was when it was started....and does it still serve that purpose today?
     
  10. langal

    langal Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,824
    Likes Received:
    91
    The purpose of the parties are to obtain power. The goal of any politician is to be elected and reelected.

    Term limits might help. A single 6 year term for the president might be good.

    Or we could get an Emperor that is greater and wiser than normal men.
     
  11. yaoluv

    yaoluv Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,381
    Likes Received:
    4
    I think we should go the opposite way, I don't trust career politicians.

    Give more power to the voter.

    Get rid of the electoral college. make voting easier, same day registration, online voting, Put major issues on the ballot, there should be a national vote on big issues like the wall street bailout, natl health insurance, war with iran.

    Let the people decide.
     
  12. weslinder

    weslinder Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2006
    Messages:
    12,983
    Likes Received:
    291
    The Electoral College and Senate were brilliant solutions by our founders to the biggest potential issue with a republic our size. The biggest potential issue was the battle between small states and big states. Since the Constitution was ratified, that has never been an issue. All interstate tensions have been regional. Throwing away their genius over one Presidential election would be incredibly short-sighted, and would invite all kinds of new issues.
     
  13. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,446
    Likes Received:
    15,886
    I agree with you on the Senate - but how does the Electoral College benefit small states? I know it theoretically does by giving them slightly more representation, but small states like Alaska, Wyoming, Utah, Delaware and Hawaii are completely ignored in Presidential campaigns, as are big states like California, Texas, and New York. All the EC seems to do is make a handful of 50/50 split states important while making the rest irrelevant.
     
  14. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,446
    Likes Received:
    15,886
    You want people who don't understand the first thing about finance voting on the Wall Street bailout? People who don't understand health care issues voting on health care? And people without access to classified intelligence deciding whether to go to war with Iran?

    That's like taking the worst of the political mudslinging of Presidential elections and transferring that to every issue. Imagine the two parties waging out all political advertising wars to decide on war with Iran. Or spending months debating a Wall Street bailout while the country goes into a depression.
     
  15. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Messages:
    62,112
    Likes Received:
    29,460
    1. no one is throwing away anything only seeking to improve .. if possible
    2. this is all theoretical anyway

    as for a strong third party
    Perot's reform Party was looking that way until the Republicans infiltrated it
    eviserated it of all its meaning . . and left it for dead

    Rocket River
     
  16. weslinder

    weslinder Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2006
    Messages:
    12,983
    Likes Received:
    291
    Candidates campaign in Delaware when it's in play. They're campaigning in West Virginia this year. The rest of the states in your example almost always vote the same way. The reality of a Presidential campaign is that during the General Election season, you can't go everywhere.
     
  17. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,446
    Likes Received:
    15,886
    Right - but if you didn't have the EC, a vote in Alaska or California would count the same as a vote in Ohio. So margins-of-victory in each state would matter, and it would encourage people to actually appeal to everyone instead of just tailoring their appeal to a handful of places.

    I think small and large states alike would benefit without the EC. Swing states wouldn't, though.
     
  18. weslinder

    weslinder Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2006
    Messages:
    12,983
    Likes Received:
    291
    And then candidates would only campaign in the 10 or 12 biggest cities, which could theoretically decide a popular vote. It would create all kinds of new issues.
     
  19. A_3PO

    A_3PO Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    42,875
    Likes Received:
    6,314
    This is one consequence many don't consider when they speak of abolishing the electoral college.
     
  20. weslinder

    weslinder Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2006
    Messages:
    12,983
    Likes Received:
    291
    While the Constitution as written isn't perfect, it's damn good, and the set up of the legislature and Electoral College was a brilliant solution to a major potential problem. The wisdom has been proven over the centuries. It's worked too well to change now.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now