I dunno, that's why I asked. When I started watching footy Montana had a lot of weapons and Elway basically carried his team. Montana's rise to greatness and the Elway's early years were before my time of watching football so I can't really compare. my short list of players that I saw quite a bit of(too lazy to come up with a whole team) Qb - Elway rb - TD(didn't have the years, but was so dominating, and did everything well) fb - moose wr - Rice, Owens ol - just go with the 1st dallas superbowl line dl - white, sapp, haley, Bruce Smith lb - derrick thomas, Ray Lewis, Urlacher cb - Woodson, Deion s - Atwood, Darren Woodson
Funny, I thought of that guy while watching Tampa's choke job this weekend. We would have beaten the Redskins in Washington if not for that crying supermodel. That Tampa collapse this weekend was very "Oiler like". We feel your pain, Tampa. Been there, done that....
Completely disagree. A) A running back's numbers are directly contingent upon his OL, especially if, as is the case for Smith but is not the case for Sanders, the majority of his yards were garnered on repeated short gains. Sanders didn't grind out one 5-10 yard run after another the way Smith did; those are the ones gained by open holes, and Smith often ran through ones as wide as a street. For a guy as productive as he was Smith rarely had any long runs based on individual talent. Don't get me wrong, he wasn't a stiff; he had excellent balance, pretty good power for his size, remarkable endurence, and read holes about as well as anyone I've seen in a while. But he had mediocre speed, only above average burst, his cuts were usually soft, and his footwork was sub-par for a big time runner. He was built to play behind a good line, and he played behind a great one. Sanders, for example, would have been unbelievable behind that line. When we say overrated we don't mean that he was a bad player said to be good...we mean he was a very good one said to be among the best, and he's not. He's not even close to Sanders...the only guy I've seen who would rank close to Sanders was Eric Dickerson, who everyone seems to have forgotten. B) A wide reciever isn't as dependant especially one who, like Rice, gained such a high percentage of his yards/tds on runs after the catch. For example, in the year that Rice played with Elvis Grbak as his qb his numbers were completely in line with his numbers with the others. And Gannon wasn't considered a great qb until after Rice got there...
These are really good lists. I do need to bring up a couple of names, unless I missed them. John Mackey to me is by far the best tight end. I would say Jack Tatum was the most intimidating safety. What an awesome play when Earl met him at the goal line. Staggered both of them, but Earl keeps his feet and gets in. You have to mention Bob Lily at tackle.
Hmmmm. No love for arguably (with apologies to Mean Joe Greene) the best defensive tackle of all time? Does the name Bob Lilly ring any bells? Edit: Moe, you beat me to it, but great minds think alike. Nice job, SF, but a few small quibbles. Alan Page was a great one, but he played defensive end. As far as I know, Butkus played the middle pretty much exclusively. And Herb Adderley, while great, is not even the best Cowboys cornerback of that era, Mel Renfro was.
Unless you guys are 60ish, there's no way ya saw Bob Lilly, Marion Motley, or several other guys mentioned actually play.
Can't say I ever say Marion Motley play, but I watched Lily for many years, and I am only 45. I guess I'll take my geritol and my afternoon nap now. Thanks, Buck.
I was reffering to when Lott and Woodson had "slowed down" by all acounts and were moved to Safety they still played the position better than anyone else.
Emmitt Smith rushed for over 1300 yards in both 98 and 99 with 13 and 11 touchdowns. Who was on Dallas's team in those years, how many games did they win? Those numbers are increases over the previous two season. Was he spectacular like Dickerson, Campbell, O.J., or Sanders, of course not. But when evaluating effectiveness, he's just as effective, and when the game is over his numbers stack up, and that's all that counts, and he did it on weaker teams later in his career.
I could not agree more. Some of the lists at DT have been dumb. Bob Lilly is THE greatest DT ever. MAYBE you could Greene there, but his popularity was driven up by his famous commercial. He might not even be the second best. Bob Lilly at DT. Plus, if you saw that game Emmitt had against the Giants with the seperated shoulder...you should be ashamed to call him over-rated...whether you hate the Cowboys or not.
Playing a great game under remarkably difficult circumstances doesn't equate to being one of the best ever...in fact it usually serves to inflate reputations; see Willis Reed, Michael Jordan, Bobby Orr, etc. I admire what he did that day; it was unquestionably tough and impressive...but how that translates to his career standing I don't understand. When they X-Rayed Lou Gehrig after his death it was revealed that he had played through at least 17 broken bones in his wrists, hands and arms alone during his career. That would be amazing in and of itself, but if he hadn't hit like he did would that have made him one of the best ever? No...just one of the toughest. There is a difference.
Motley played before Lilly did. I didn't see Jim Brown play either. He retired just before I started watching. Oh yeah, did anyone mention Larry Csonka at fullback? He was the best I ever saw.
One last thing about Emmitt and I will leave it alone, does anyone remember the 93 season, when that team won their second Superbowl? Remember, that team started off 0-2 because Emmitt didn't play because he was in contract negotiations. Emmitt comes in, after a player who is conspicuously missing off everyone's list throws a tirade after the second lost, Dallas wins its next 7 in a row, finishing 12-4, and Emmitt wins his third straight rushing title, proving his importance to that team. On a side note, what player threw said tirade after the second game of the 93 season for the Cowboys. He should have been mentioned in this thread a long time ago. Dallas fans should know this.
Are you talking Michael Irvin? If so...who would you put him ahead of? He was also overrated...and what's more few players in NFL history have gotten away with as much blatent cheating as Irvin, he was ridiculous. Smith and Irvin were very overrated on that team. On the other side, Aikman might have deserved more praise than he got...not to rank with the Montanas, Elways and Marinos of the world, but a tier or two down. And the OL was among the best I've ever seen, with the Oilers and maybe the Rams.
Not, Michael Irvin, however, I will say one thing about Michael, he and Rice are the only receivers I've never seen get shut down by Deion. He (the player who threw the tirade) isn't one of the players usually associated with that team, but he is definitly one of the greatest at his position in his prime but probably doesn't have the longevity. A Dallas fan should know this.
Haley or Donaldson ar ethe only two I can think of but Donaldson played for awhile so I'll guess Haley
Ding Ding, we have a winner, Charles Haley was one of the most dominant defensive players in the NFL in his prime, just doesn't have the longevity.
