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All-Time Basketball IQ Rankings [TOP 20]

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Richie_Rich, Aug 21, 2013.

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Who's got the highest basketball IQ of All-Time?

Poll closed Aug 26, 2013.
  1. Bird

    55 vote(s)
    48.2%
  2. Magic

    22 vote(s)
    19.3%
  3. Cousy

    3 vote(s)
    2.6%
  4. the Big O

    1 vote(s)
    0.9%
  5. Hondo

    1 vote(s)
    0.9%
  6. the LOGO, Mr. Clutch

    5 vote(s)
    4.4%
  7. CP3 (Mr. President, flops and all)

    6 vote(s)
    5.3%
  8. that old dude Nash (but when he was younger)

    5 vote(s)
    4.4%
  9. LerBern Jerms (King maybe, but no Prez)

    8 vote(s)
    7.0%
  10. Someone else, dude (but NOT John freakin' Stockton)

    8 vote(s)
    7.0%
  1. basketballholic

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    Nice mention on Bill Bradley. Those Bradley led Knick teams were some if the highest bball iq teams ever assembled. Not only him but also his teammates. They played great team basketball that made the whole much greater than the sum of their parts. Bradley was a smart guy all-around, just like Battier. But Bradley was very smart on-court, just like Battier as well.
     
    #21 basketballholic, Aug 22, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  2. Richie_Rich

    Richie_Rich Member
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    Thanks, appreciate it. And I completely agree with you. My top 20 would be able to dominate in any era. Even when accounting for the variance in style of play (and size/athleticism of today's pros), they'd easily adapt/excel given their intelligence, intangibles and work ethic. As far as psychological intimidation goes, Jordan (unlike Tiger Woods) was, remarkably, able to sustain this edge against his lesser competitors. Washington Wizards notwithstanding. Bird, as you rightly stated, is up there with him in this regard as well. It would be interesting to study this correlation with IQ.

    Agree, somewhat. These rankings are generally subjective (see Disclaimer). That being said, genius IQ is not very difficult to judge among students of the game. Take Bird vs. Pippen, for example. Both small forwards are highly accomplished champions. Both were awarded NBA Top 50 All Time designations (highly arguable in Pips case, IMO). And, although Pippen's defensive IQ and overall feel for playoff basketball were very impressive, it's no match for Bird's genius and playmaking ability. He simply made his teammates all-time greats. Pippen? Not so much. Julius Irving didn't quite crack my top 20, but he's definitely next tier. (He's included amongst the Honorable Mentions.)

    Yeah, I knew this argument would come up. But let's be real here. I can rattle off at least 20 other, more capable, elite wing defenders who excelled at more than merely team defense. Not to take anything away from Shane. He's definitely a video room/scout report junkie, but it takes a special skill set to execute even the most advanced game plans. Let's just say that he's nowhere close to (off the top of my head): Pippen, Alvin Robertson, Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars, Sidney Moncrief, Mookie Blaylock, Gary Payton, Michael Jordan, Ron Artest or even Bruce Bowen. That's just perimeter man/team defense. Please don't get me started on offensive IQ. Battier's well below average in that regard (to put it nicely).
     
  3. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    This is a hard list to come up with, since basketball IQ doesn't necessarily translate into significant minutes, if the physical talent isn't there.

    Things I'd consider:

    - known to be very good on defense, especially team defense
    - good passer, "court general"
    - moved well without the ball
    - good at making reads others don't see
    - went into coaching or front-office management after their playing career
    - wrote about basketball
     
  4. crossover

    crossover Contributing Member

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    Stockton and Chris Paul are up there for me. Consummate floor generals and decision makers, great court vision/awareness, great defense, and great shot selection. In general, top PGs and the usual GOAT players will be mentioned because these guys are usually ball dominant offensively - more avenues to display their basketball IQ.

    I think an interesting question is to ask who has the best basketball IQ out of players who didn't really handle the ball. Rodman is the only one on that list that wasn't a primary ball handler but I'm not sure I'd argue his basketball IQ was high myself. Of players that mold, I'd probably argue Ben Wallace had a higher bball-IQ. Then there are Battier/Bowen types... not sure who'd I'd pick for that.
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. DocRock

    DocRock Member

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    Bill Russell won 2 championships as player-coach and played both ends of the floor. I have a hard time putting Magic (or anyone else) ahead of him.

    Kobe needs to be on here somewhere.
    If Nash is top 15 there's no way Jason Kidd is honorable mention.
    If Magic and Nash are top 20 as one-way offensive players, KG should be top 20 for his D

    And might be fun to consider players who became coaches. I'm sure pat riley and phil had good IQ as players.
     
  6. CantBeRight

    CantBeRight Member

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    Where's Jeremy Lin.
     
  7. pmac

    pmac Contributing Member

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    I have a hard time finding a reason why Bill Russell shouldn't be #1 on this list.

    We STILL haven't figured out how to quantify defensive contributions, leadership, execution, and a team first mindset. He understood how to be a significant contributor to winning without being a great scorer and teams are still overpaying players based on points per game.

    Also, I'd leave out anyone who was a below average defender or was an atheletic freak. While some of those athletic freaks also had high bball IQ. It was the combination of that with their athleticism that made them greats.
     
    #27 pmac, Aug 22, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
    1 person likes this.
  8. LCAhmed

    LCAhmed Contributing Member

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    Monta Ellis. He have it all you know
     
  9. CertifiedTroll

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  10. Richie_Rich

    Richie_Rich Member
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    Thanks. Yeah, you're right. We're talking about court smarts--not classroom brilliance. To add to my point (in the prior post) on Battier-like role players, their strong IQs elevate their games where their physical tools drop off. What makes Shane an elite 'glue guy' in the classical sense, is his veteran smarts and leadership. It's his strong fundamentals, anticipation and tactics--not his lateral quickness, athleticism, or strength--that's gotten him this far out of Duke. How many times have we heard it? Intangibles. Intangibles. Intangibles.

    You may say, well then you prove my point... Shane's IQ overcame his raw physical limitations so it puts him near the top. And I would say, not a chance.

    A quotient (in this case IQ) is measured by a numerical ratio multiplied by 100 between a test score and a standard value (according to Merriam-Webster). So then the question becomes, how do we measure a numerical ratio when our variable is intelligence?

    Well, there must be a test score and a standard value. In my humble opinion, this 'test score' is known by the totality of stats and advanced metrics captured during the course of a game (or career of games) that contribute to winning. Whatever formula is used is immaterial. What's important here is the test score is relative to the standard (or mean) value. I'd say the standard value here represents the on-court production of the league taken as a whole (in percentages).

    Battier's Defensive Win Share (DWS) only ranked in the top 10 twice, and not since the 2005-06 (4.5) and 2007-08 (4.6) seasons. His career Defensive Rating is paltry at best (104.72), ranking him 187 overall (just behind fellow Dukie, Christian Laettner). Surprisingly, for all the talk of Shane's defensive efficiency, he ranks much higher in career Offensive Rating (114.7), placing him 44th all-time. Numbers never lie. Unfortunately, eyes do... and lips often perpetuate the myth.

    In short, a player like Battier's 'test score' must be measured by real on-court production relative to team success. This value must then be rated against the 'standard value' or league-wide mean. Once this division is calculated we have a quotient. It is my contention that elite intelligence must be determined by elite on-court achievement relative to team goals (efficiency, winning, etc.) and also league standards.

    Now, if Battier had the physical tools of a Tracy McGrady, for example, could we say that he'd rate among the top 20 all-time in terms of BB IQ? Difficult to say, but I wouldn't bet against his work ethic (talking Shane here, not Tracy).

    On a side note, there's absolutely no way I'd ever rate Battier ahead of Deke when it comes to BB IQ. Mutumbo's defensive metrics (i.e. def rebounding %, block %, Def rating, DWS, etc.) during his prime are video game-like. He was a juggernaut. And for those who say it was due to his elite size and length, please. There are hundreds of athletic big men today (and in the past) who can't even walk and chew gum at the same time. Never mind understanding the complexities of advanced defensive fundamentals, low block positioning, controlling the paint, and weak side rotations (looking at you, DeAndre Jordan). Nope. Deke's on-court BB IQ was off the charts. Sorry.
     
  11. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Dr. J is a hall of famer and an all time great scorer, but I never thought he had a great basketball IQ or court vision.
     
  12. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Bill Russell was on a great team, with great teammates and an innovative coach and front office. Also, I would argue that while Russell was a bit short, he was also an athletic freak.....

    This whole debate is interesting because it is so subjective.
     
  13. basketballholic

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    Bill Russell dominated Wilt's teams. Bill's teammates are recognized as better teammates because they beat Wilt's teams so often. But rest assured, Bill could have taken Wilt's teammates and done the same thing to Wilt that he did with his own.

    Watch the games and look at the numbers. Wilt had crazy numbers against Bill. But you know what? He wasn't efficient. Bill knew about efficiency and "advanced stats" before Morey was born. The reason the Celts dominated Wilt's teams was because Bill would have them funnel the ball to Wilt. He knew Wilt's mindset was to outnumber him. So, they'd funnel the ball to Wilt, and then they'd attack Wilt. With Bill defending his back and the guards poking the ball away from him and with Wilt's terrible free throw shooting the Celtics sucked down Wilt's teams efficiency. Wilt NEVER figured it out.

    So, I agree with the poster that said Bill should be at the top of the list. He was (and still is) a true basketball genius.
     
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  14. Richie_Rich

    Richie_Rich Member
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    Yup, I agree completely. The physical tools must be there in order to showcase IQ. Most of those traits went into my evalutation. Although, the front-office management prerequisite may disqualify His Airness from my top 20. And if Scottie Brooks can't get past LeBron in the Finals, does this mean Kenny the Jet had the higher IQ as our starter? :cool:

    INSERT: [Rodman's_BadAsIWannaBe.pdf]

    Great point. Ball dominant perimeter playermakers generally dictate the flow and intricacies of the offense. Chris Paul's IQ definitely comes to mind, especially in the current era of the point guard.

    Your question would make for a fascinating thread topic. I'll go ahead and share that, although I knew Ben Wallace was a stud, I had no idea how intelligent he was until I went back and studied his advanced metrics. Wow. He ranks up there with the all time greats. Unfortunately, I left him on the Honorable Mentions list because his offensive limitations were just too much to overlook.

    On that same note, I have no problem swapping Pistol Pete (currently at #20) or Steve Nash for a more balanced, two-way MENSA star. Chris Paul was initially in my top 20 but my buddy talked me out of it. Something about today's defensive schemes not being what they used to be during the 80's and early 90s. He blames Stern's rules for softening the game (no hand check, flagrant 2s, etc.) that opened the door to Euro-style soccer flopping. Also, the influx of high school (and, 1 and done) kids severely watered-down foundational aspects of defensive basketball. That, and the superstar treatment by refs (that started with MJ) opened huge lanes for dribble penetration, vis-à-vis iso ball.

    I tend to agree with him--and most will disagree with me--but I say there are really only two prime superstars in the league today: Kevin Durant and LeBron James. The Black Mamba, KG, Mr. Fundamental had their time in the sun. Now they're riding home into the sunset. Every other so-called superstar of this era has been manufactured by the NBA marketing machine. Where I'm from superstars are winners and unstoppable forces of nature. This topic can be revisited when CP3, Griffin, Melo, DRose, Howard, et. al. consistenly contribute to their team's success in the conference finals.

    Giving testimonies in China somewhere, I think. It's been posted in the GARM. ;)

    You make very solid points. This is where I'll admit my bias in seeing Bird and Magic play live at the Summit. I suppose the next generation may say the same about LeBron and Durant, while diminishing Bird and Magic. That being said, I would have no problem admitting that Mr. Russell may, in fact, display the highest IQ (relative to his competition) the game has ever known (had I lived in Beantown during his era).

    But this much is true. It makes me (as well as the true greats) sick to hear the size of today's NBA contracts. These bloated contracts are literally being GIFTED to today's primadonna, so-called superstars who've never won anything at the NBA level. MJ is right. It's all based on potential; whereas it used to be earned by achievement. By that's another topic for another day.

    And, you won't see the new President of the NBAPA lobbying for CBA reform, either. Top 20 BB IQ or not.
     
  15. Richie_Rich

    Richie_Rich Member
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    Perfect analysis. Right on the money.

    Although, to his credit, Wilt later learned to move the ball and eagerly found his open teammates. As mentioned in the OP, he did lead the NBA in assists one season. But you are absolutely correct. Wilt was never on Russell's level intellectually. There's no doubt that Bill Russell could have focused his energy on battling for scoring crowns. Yet, his tremendous IQ wouldn't allow it. The goal was winning as a team. Nothing else mattered. And, nobody's ever done it better with more class.
     
  16. Richie_Rich

    Richie_Rich Member
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    Ha, just caught this.

    Although Rondo is an exceptional talent for today's game, I'm obviously referring to the one of the most intelligent, clutch performers of all time: John Havlicek aka "Hondo".

    Here's an excerpt taken from nba.com "Legends of the Game" edition:

     
  17. CDrex

    CDrex Contributing Member

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    I really, really like your list and particularly, I really like your top five and the specific way you ordered them. Bird was incredible to watch because he thought so far ahead of everyone else on the court, allowing him to be a truly elite player without being a freak athlete. Magic was Magic, the best offensive architect of all time. The Cousy pick really gets me more than anything else. I hate hearing about how Cousy/Russell type players wouldn't have the same impact today. It's probably partially true on a purely athletic level. But as much as I like Chris Paul or Steve Nash, nothing they do gives me shivers quite like watching highlights of Cousy, inventing the entire genre of what it meant to be a point guard in the NBA. A guy with that much intelligence, creativity, and instinct COULDN'T fail in any era of the game, in my opinion. I think if you warped a 14-year-old Cousy to 1990 and gave him the same developmental, nutritional, training and scouting advantages Steve Nash enjoyed in that time period, Cousy is absolutely right there with Nash as the best point guard in the league.

    I think the most severe omission from your top 20 is Kidd. No one mastered the art of reading the defense and throwing passes to the guy who was ABOUT to be open like Kidd. He was also incredible at reading the travel of the ball and positioning himself to take advantage, allowing him to become 9 time All-Defense and one of the best rebounding guards of all time. He'd easily be in my top 10.
     
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  18. Richie_Rich

    Richie_Rich Member
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    Thanks for the feedback. I'm 100% in agreement with your take on Cousy. Honestly, I can't think of any player who's modernized the game (on any level, in any era) more so than Mr. Basketball. But I'd be remiss not to also credit Red Auerbach for masterminding such a tremendous scheme like the fast break. It's no secret Coach Auerbach didn't think much of him as a pro prospect, but again, credit to Cousy for earning Red's trust and translating his genius IQ onto the parquet floor where it mattered. Together with Russell, they were well ahead of their time.

    You also bring up an interesting question. Let's say we did warp a young Cousy to the 90s (along w/ aforementioned developmental advantages enjoyed by Nash and company). And let's also say the game's evolution to this point (in the 90s) remained the same... would Cousy's genius revolutionize the PG position to yet another strata during the late 90s? Perhaps to even a strata beyond anything Nash (or CP3) could possibly fathom?

    I suppose it's like asking what new quantum or wormhole theories Einstein could have developed had he entered an era where E=MC2, general & special relativity etc., was already known and understood by an establishment of unoriginal physicists trading common stock. From our perspectives, any modern day physicist who mathematically understands the theoretical mechanics of an Einstein-Rosen bridge would be thought of as an intellectual giant. For someone of Einstein's genius, however, they would rate as mere children. Something tells me Cousy would've seen it the same way had he boarded Einstein's wormhole as a 14 yr old prodigy and landed in 1993. It's a scary notion worth contemplating.

    And lastly, it's funny that you mention Kidd. Everyone has been going on and on about Chris Paul's ommission from my Top 20. But truthfully, the ONLY name that's been bothering me is Jason Kidd's. Looking back, I should have included him and removed Wilt. Can't say he'd crack my top 10 though. Too bad I don't have editing privileges.

    Solid post. Thanks for sharing.
     
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  19. JMAD21

    JMAD21 Member

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    Why cant you just list the option in the poll? Why would you put "LerBern Jerms"???

    What would possibly make you think that is funny??
     
  20. Richie_Rich

    Richie_Rich Member
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    Why can't you just choose LeBron in the poll and move on (like everyone else).

    Out of all the interesting discussions going on, you pick this to complain about? C'mon. Is LeBron your cousin or something? If so, then I take it back and kindly ask you for his autograph.

    Lighten up, man. :grin:
     

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