Alabama's Top Judge Defiant on Commandments' Display

cool...i misunderstood you.

 

Has anybody brought up the paradox that this great big statue of the ten commandmants may, in fact, violate the text and the spirit of the second commandment (prohibition on graven images & idolatry)? (if you're being highly literal in your interpretation, which I imagine that Judge moore and his band of martyrs are)

 

looks like someone has been reading his John Calvin!

 

more like Joseph Heller....

 

was he a French lawyer, too?

 

he made that mayonaisse didn't he?

Hellerman's?

 

Actually if you are a christian, that is exactly what you should want. Most christains do not even know what "In God we Trust" truly means. I find it kind of funny. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments.

Joseph Campbell can explain:

"...the elegant eighteenth-century engraving still to be seen on the back of our twentieth-century dollar bill represents a realization of the philosophical way pursued by that extraordinary company of deists to whom we owe the establishment, in reason, of this nation. Composed of elements adapted from a hermetic tradition of great antiquity and universality (undoubtedly assembled from the library and great learning of Thomas Jefferson), its pictorial vocabulary is so little understood today that many suppose the word 'God' of its maxim, 'In God we trust,' to be a reference to the 'God' of the Christian religion, which it is not. For the deists rejected the idea of the 'Fall' and, with that, the necessity for 'Redemption,' as well as the idea of a special Judeo-Christian revelation. Man's nature, in their view, is not corrupt. The idea of God is innate in man's mind from the beginning; so that by reason alone man has arrived, everywhere, at a recognition of God which is sufficient. Religious intolerance is blasphemy, since in their primal ground and ultimate sense, all religions are one, as is mankind" (Inner Reaches, p. 126).




There is something about that on the Great Seal of the United States.

That's what the Great Seal is all about. I carry a copy of the Great Seal in my pocket in the form of a dollar bill. Here is the statement of the ideals that brought about the formation of the United States. Look at the pyramid on the left. A pyramid has four sides. These are the four points of the compass. There is somebody at this point, there is somebody at that point and there's somebody at this point. When you're down on the lower levels of this pyramid, you will be either on one side or the other. But when you get to the top, the points all come together, and there the eye of God opens.

And to them it was the god of reason?

Yes. This is the first nation in the world that was ever established on the basis of reason instead of simply warfare. These were eighteenth-century deists, these gentlemen. Over here we read, "In God We Trust." But that is not the god of the Bible. These men did not believe in a Fall. They did not think the mind of man was cut off from God. The mind of man, cleansed of secondary and merely temporal concerns, beholds with the radiance of a cleansed mirror a reflection of the rational mind of God. Reason puts you in touch with God. Consequently, for these men, there is no special revelation anywhere, and none is needed, because the mind of man cleared of its fallibilities is sufficiently capable of the knowledge of God. All people in the world are thus capable because all people in the world are capable of reason.

All men are capable of reason. That's the fundamental principle of democracy. Because everybody's mind is capable of true knowledge, you don't have to have a special authority, or a special revelation telling you that this is the way things should be.

 

That's some good stuff. Who is Joseph Campbell, and what does he right about? I'm curious about the topic. I knew that the "God" we're referring to is not the Judeo-Christian god, but I don't know much more.

 

excellent article

Yes, many of the founding fathers were deists, and did not want Religion in the government. Need we remind folks that the sordid history of the world before democratic America was littered with corrupt rulers who combined religion and governance?



The Christians who think this is the God of Moses on our money are mistaken.

 

Joseph campbell writes lots of books, most well known being "the power of myth" which Bill moyers made into an incredibly long miniseries/documetnary I think.

As for the dollar bill symbol, that's a free mason symbol, I believe, but I think the free-masons borrowed it from the Egyptians or some non-christian source.

 

Meowgi --

Interesting stuff. I find the founders were deists to be mostly overblown. I read a ton on the Founders...I find that most had very strong ideas about a God who was very active in this world. Read much of Adams and you'll find he would be very much in line with mainstream Protestant Christianity today...read Washington and he talks constantly of the Hand of Providence interceding in the affairs of the Revolution...and the list goes on. There were definitely some skeptics, like Jefferson...but for the most part I find that everyone wants to say the Founders were Deists...but no one wants to back it up.

Plus..the idea the Founders loved democracy and the concepts of everyone is capable of reason is not in line with my readings of many of the Founders...read about their concerns with mob rule...from that fear was born the separation of power and a strong executive power to temper an otherwise all-empowered legislature. Adams' "Thoughts on Government" bemoans the ideas of Athenian democracy while trumpeting the principles of a republic.

Having said that...the "In God We Trust" stuff..that's new to me. Honestly, I could care less what it meant at its inception. It's what it means to me that is important...what it means to each reader.

I listen to a ton of secular music...I find spiritual meaning in some of those songs where it was certainly not intended. I've managed to turn PARTS of Dave Matthews' "Crash" into my own little hymn...the same with "Everyday" and many other songs from other secular artists. I know...I'm a freak. But ultimately, if the words "In God We Trust" had a different meaning 200 years ago, that's largely irrelevant to how 99% of Americans would feel about that today...or the meaning we would ascribe to those words today.

I've never heard "E Pluribus Unum" used in that way...honestly, I'm not sure I buy that. Literally, it means, "From many, one." I think that has more to do with one nation coming from many. But that's just been my understanding of it.

By the way...when was the Great Seal created?? My understanding is that was added to currency sometime in the 20th century...am i wrong there?

 

created in the 18th c., added in the 1930's IIRC.

 

religious diversity created the many colonies

Rhode Island and Pennsylvania were both created by men seeking religious enclaves for their faiths. Other colonies were straight up business ventures, and at least one a home for criminals. Their diversity is reflected in the lack of a specific GOD or religion in our Constitution, which is the operative document, not the Declaration of Independence.

 

Sorry, I don't find ignorance irrelevant. As George Carlin once said, "F*ck popular usage!" I think we should know the truth.

But I'm not really attacking christians. I also think it is funny that the ones trying to get "In God We Trust" removed etc. are the ones who probably should want it to stay.

 

MadMax, I hope you're not asking God to hike up his robe a little more.

 

Judge Moore was able to put this whole incident in the proper perspective:

"I hear others talk of a rule of law," the chief justice said. "If the rule of law means to do everything a judge tells you to do, we would still have slavery in this country. If the rule of law means to do everything a judge tells you to do, the Declaration of Independence would be a meaningless document."



Right from the Judge's mouth ... don't follow court orders you don't like.

 

Interesting quote from the chief justice:

"I hear others talk of a rule of law," the chief justice said. "If the rule of law means to do everything a judge tells you to do, we would still have slavery in this country. If the rule of law means to do everything a judge tells you to do, the Declaration of Independence would be a meaningless document."

I suspect that chesnut might not work well when arguing a case in front of this or any judge. He might want to leave it out of his Supreme Court appeal, as well.

EDIT: Why oh why, must I take so long to post.

Damn you Major!

 

I can't believe after practicing law all these years, I suddenly find the one quote that will justify everything or anything my client may do.

"If the rule of law means to do everything a judge tells you to do, the Declaration of Independence would be a meaningless document."


Screw those millions of cases and statutes, I've got one sentence that addresses all problems.