[Al Jazeera] U.S. army chief authorized abusive tactics in Iraq

I love how you continue to bring up the Declaration of Independence. Since when do foreign nationals get all rights described within it? They don't, so that is a ridiculous arguement. It wasn't written for anyone other then the American people... and it was especially not written for those at war with our nation. When our founding fathers were penning it I highly doubt they had their enemies in mind.

Since when does a litmus test of how the world "honors" our soldiers depict how we proceed in forgiegn policy and our military actions? Our soldiers have been the targets of billions of foes since the end of World War II, now is no different. Our military and power has been the envy and hatred of the vast majority of the world since the fall of the Nazi regime and other then a few strong allies it is the constant job of the majority of the world to want us to fail.

I just love how you utopians can sit here and say that making the American name look good in the world is more important then a few measily American lives. So, if one of your family member's was raped or thrown in jail you'd disown them so you didn't dishonor your family's name? Pathetic. Since when has American been praised by the other powers in the world? That's right it doesn't happen, and it never will. When you're on top you have a target on your back at all times. They hated us before Iraq and they hate us now.

Some bad things went on at Abu Ghraib but they were done by individual soldiers, not the Army. I don't recall an Army memo mentioning raping prisoners to get information out of them... Jump on your ACLU bandwagon, yeah the same ACLU that faught hard for the freedom of Zacarias Moussaoui and other terrorists. If these are the people that you want to wave your banner of idiocy then so be it. Those same soldiers you lump with criminals are the same ones defending your freedom to banter on.

 

Suvpernaunt,

Do you really believe that a couple of low level military personal did all that you saw in those pictures on their own? For kicks on a Saturday night. That they didn't have orders to do so? Have you ever been in the military?
NO low level military does that in plain sight of everyone without orders.

I know you feel like your back is against the wall and you don't feel like you can acknowledge that this administration gave the ok for such tactics (which they did when bush informed the world that they would not abide by the Geneva Conventions because they wanted "more flexibility") but, just step back and honestly look at the situation and tell me which is more likely.

It's ok to question a party you support; it's a sign of an open mind. Which is a good thing.

 

Feel free to show me a link where the Army condoned raping inmates and killing them? There are none, so those were acts of lone individuals. How dare you attack the Army as a whole for the acts of a few. I guess you have an autographed copy of Jane Fonda's book too huh? Pathetic. Once again, the ACLU being praised in this topic is the same one fighting for Zacarias Moussaoui... bravo.

If you don't see how interrogating prisoners who are known terrorists leads to saving lives then you my friend aren't very bright. Imagine what would have happened on 09.11.01 if the FBI was able to openly interrogate Zacarias Moussaoui and read and access his secured computer files months before the attack... that tragedy probably would have never happened. Our "profiling" and interrogation tactics put into place after 9/11 have diverted many catastrophes on our soil and abroad.

I don't care WHAT our actions make muslim extremests think... their thoughts and views are of no concern to me. If we act on how our enemy will perceive our actions rather then what is best for American lives, then the terrorists win. They hated us long before Abu Ghraib and were lining up by the thousands as martyrs. Our backing of Israel is why they hate us and will always hate us, but we don't abandon Israel simply because us backing them helps terrorist recruitment.

 

You have no idea the extent of my knowledge of the military and what can go in it. Saying that no low level ranking soldier does anything on their own is ridiculous. There have been war attrocities by low level ranking Americans in every war we've ever fought, but that doesn't take away from the greater good of our entire fighting forces.

I like how you also think you know how I feel or where I stand about the current administration... not to mention the fact that you think because some elements in the military did something wrong it was from direct orders from the White House. There is no proof of that happening and in true NoWorries fashion LINKS!?!?!?! lol.

My entire argument has nothing to do with the current President, it has everything to do with you guys praising people like the ACLU while bashing our US Armed forces as a whole. It's disgusting, it really is. The great thing about this country is you can bash the very aspect of it that gives you the freedom to bash in the first place, and I just love how you all ride on the coat tails of the ACLU and eat it up like children eating cereal and watching the Saturday morning cartoons.

So, go ahead and bash the Armed forces, bash the US, bash Bush and bash me... you have every right too.

 

I think there is a fundemental lack of understanding about what our declaration of indepence says. It says specificall the rights they are talking about belong to ALL MEN It does not say Americans. It might have been written for Americans, but the words obviously derive from an understanding that ALL MEN are ENTITLED to CERTAIN RIGHTS. The declaration of independence merely said that unlike other govts. our govt. would recognize that fact. The declaration does not say that only Americans are entitled to certain rights. In fact it says the opposite. Who the document was written for doesn't trump what the document says, and the beliefs behind it.

As for it being for those we are war with, that doesn't really apply here. We are supposedly fighting FOR those innocent Iraqis not against them. Remember that large numbers of those in AG were innocent. The innocent ones are not the enemy we are supposed to be fighting against.

Our honor doesn't come from how the rest of the world sees us. It comes from our own conduct. If we behave dishonorably by resorting to torture, then honor is lost. Saddam used torture and had no honor.

To claim the rest of the world has mostly hated us since WWII isn't accurate either. Most of Europe had, until recently, a fairly high approval rating of the U.S. That doesn't mean there weren't disagreements, and soar spots. But the U.S. was once respected and our way of life and democracy was beacon throughout the world. We were respected in many cases, loved in some, and despised in some. But it hasn't been us against the world. This was especially true after 9/11.

It isn't about doing what pleases the rest of the world, but carrying ourselves with honor does bring respect with it.

I would never abandon a family member to prison, rape or anything else. I also wouldn't dishonor them by resorting to the methods of tyrants, dictators and terrorists.

Again you haven't shown that torture and breaking our word, has saved one single person. You haven't shown that it helped in any way at all. There is no evidence to back up your claim.

There is no dishonor in being raped, or imprisoned, but there is dishonor in raping, and falsely imprisoning.

The ACLU memo is only piece of evidence of these things. General Taguba a Major General in the U.S. Army is one place you might look for a report on the other abuses.

I care about our troops. I cared enough that I didn't think they should have to go die for this. I care enough that while they are over there, I am proud of the ones who carry themselves with honor, and outraged by those that don't.

 

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal..."

Where does it say anything about all AMERICAN men? In fact, since America didn't even exist before they penned the Declaration, how could they possibly have intended those words to apply ONLY to Americans?

They specifically said ALL men, not all Americans or all Britons, or all Frenchmen, they said ALL men.

You would have a strong argument if you said that foreign nationals do not get all the protections of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, but trying to claim that the Declaration of Independence applies only to Americans is, to use your seemingly favorite put down, pathetic.

Wrong.

We were nearly universally supported by all worldwide powers in the aftermath of 9/11. Even Arab nations supported our action in Afghanistan, which was the right action to take given their support of the terrorists who helped plan 9/11.

Then, GWB and his cabal decided to go after Iraq (actually, the evidence shows that they got this idea even before 9/11) by riding the 9/11 sentiment. They were able to bamboozle the populace of America by over-hyping WMD claims and trying to tie Iraq to 9/11, but the people in other countries wanted actual evidence to back up the unsubstantiated "intelligence" (much of which was provided by an agent of a hostile government) being touted by the US government.

When we decided to attack Iraq over the objections from the rest of the world, THAT is when the current antipathy toward the US geared up again. GWB had the good will and support of the world. He could have used that good will to do a lot of great things for the world, but instead turned that good will to hate by invading a country based on faulty "intelligence."

To use your descriptor again, pathetic.

I have nothing but praise for the bravery and courage of our rank-and-file troops. They are doing a job that is the most difficult undertaking you can ask a person to take on and they get all the credit in the world from me.

It is the leadership that is deficient.

 

How did those polls work for you on election day? Bah sheep.

 

How does this respond to the points made in the post?