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[Al Jazeera] U.S. army chief authorized abusive tactics in Iraq

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by No Worries, Mar 30, 2005.

  1. basso

    basso Member
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    ahhhhhh, clever, if indicipherable, and if by losing i don't make common cause with terrorists, just put a big

    <--L

    beside my name.
     
  2. FranchiseBlade

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    For the last time, people who write off Al Jazeera off the bat, are not familiar with Al Jazeera.

    The organization is independent, with a target audience, and different perspective. That perspective does cause some articles to come from one particular angle. That doesn't invalidate them as a source in the least. They aren't on the side of terrorists, or even against the U.S. in general. They work closely with and listen to U.S. military representatives as well as others.
     
  3. ima_drummer2k

    ima_drummer2k Member

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    Why wouldn't they clarify the 12 interrogation tactics which "stepped way over the line?"

    Sorry, I didn't mean to write off a story based solely on the source. I know no one around here would ever do anything like that...
     
  4. FranchiseBlade

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    The not clarifying and way over the line part comes from the ACLU. Al Jazeera can't write what their source doesn't say.

    As far as Fox is concerened, I agree that they have a bias, but that everyone should look at the information and decide for themselves. I don't have a problem with articles that come from Fox, because if they are faulty it won't be too difficult to debunk them. The same is true of Al Jazeera.

    In the Fox article there was no memo or other official document from Iraq or Saddam authorizing Timothy McV to bomb the fed building.

    In the Al Jazeera story they are working off a memo from the Army official in which he ok's methods that go beyond agreements, laws, and regulations that the U.S. supports.
     
  5. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    Honestly, we mistreated terrorists? The same ones that ram car bombs into innocent people every day? Cry me a river, just send Jack Bauer in...
     
  6. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Here is the ACLU copy that they shotgunned to the media ...

    Interrogation Techniques Approved by Lieutenant General Sanchez Included Intimidation by Dogs, Stress Positions, Sensory Deprivation
    March 29, 2005

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    Contact: media@aclu.org

    ACLU Obtains September 2003 Memo Central to Abu Ghraib Story

    NEW YORK -- A memo signed by Lieutenant General Ricardo A. Sanchez authorizing 29 interrogation techniques, including 12 which far exceeded limits established by the Army's own Field Manual, was made public for the first time by the American Civil Liberties Union today.

    "General Sanchez authorized interrogation techniques that were in clear violation of the Geneva Conventions and the Army's own standards," said ACLU attorney Amrit Singh. "He and other high-ranking officials who bear responsibility for the widespread abuse of detainees must be held accountable."


    The ACLU has a lawsuit pending against Sanchez alleging direct responsibility for the torture and abuse of detainees in U.S. military custody. The existence of the memo and excerpts of it were previously published in The Washington Post, but it is being reprinted in full here for the first time.

    The Defense Department initially refused to release the September Sanchez memo on national security grounds. After the ACLU filed legal papers specifically challenging the withholding of the memo on those grounds, the Defense Department reconsidered its position and released the document to the ACLU late in the afternoon on Friday, March 25, 2005. At the same time, the Defense Department released a previously leaked October 12, 2003 Sanchez memo that superseded the September Sanchez memo.

    In a letter sent yesterday to Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein, who is overseeing the case, the ACLU said that the Department of Defense (DOD) "has demonstrated a singular disregard for this Court�s repeated orders and has continued to engage in a pattern of delay." DOD has asked four times for extensions in turning over documents.

    The Sanchez memo dated September 14, 2003, specifically allows for interrogation techniques involving the use of military dogs specifically to "Exploit(s) Arab fear of dogs," isolation, and stress positions.

    The September Sanchez memo is posted online at http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17851&c=206.

    The October Sanchez memo is posted on line at http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17849&c=206.


    More than 30,000 pages of other released documents are posted online at http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia.

    Earlier this month, the ACLU and Human Rights First filed a lawsuit charging Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld with direct responsibility for the torture and abuse of detainees in U.S. military custody. The action was the first federal court lawsuit to name a top U.S. official in the ongoing torture scandal in Iraq and Afghanistan; many of the charges are based on documents obtained through the FOIA lawsuit. The ACLU has also filed separate lawsuits naming Brig. Gen. Karpinski, Col. Thomas Pappas and Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez. Details about the Rumsfeld lawsuit are online at www.aclu.org/rumsfeld.

    The FOIA lawsuit is being handled by Lawrence Lustberg and Megan Lewis of the New Jersey-based law firm Gibbons, Del Deo, Dolan, Griffinger & Vecchione, P.C. Other attorneys in the case are Singh, Jameel Jaffer, and Judy Rabinovitz of the ACLU; Arthur N. Eisenberg and Beth Haroules of the NYCLU; and Barbara Olshansky and Jeff Fogel of the Center for Constitutional Rights.

    © ACLU, 125 Broad Street, 18th Floor New York, NY 10004 This is the Web site of the American Civil Liberties Union and the ACLU Foundation.
     
  7. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    Lieutenant General Ricardo A. Sanchez is my new hero.
     
  8. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Maybe. Maybe not. Due process did not happen.
     
  9. basso

    basso Member
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  10. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    Exactly.

    Remember we are dealing with liberals here who mourn the death of mistreated terrorists, yet cheer the death/poor health/etc of GOP leaders. A real classy bunch...
     
  11. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Latest Government Documents Show Army Command Approved and Encouraged Abuse of Detainees, ACLU Says
    April 19, 2005

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    Contact: media@aclu.org

    NEW YORK -- New evidence disclosed in documents released by the Department of Defense confirms that soldiers who abused prisoners were acting with the "seeming approval" of senior command, the American Civil Liberties Union said today.

    "These documents provide further evidence that the chain of command in Iraq approved and even encouraged the abuse of detainees held in U.S. custody," said ACLU attorney Amrit Singh. "Instead of holding that chain of command accountable for systemic detainee abuse, the U.S. government continues to thwart efforts to bring the full truth about who was ultimately responsible to light."

    A CD-ROM of 2,200 documents was released yesterday in response to a federal court order that directed the Defense Department and other government agencies to comply with a year-old request under the Freedom of Information Act filed by the ACLU, the Center for Constitutional Rights, Physicians for Human Rights, Veterans for Common Sense and Veterans for Peace. The New York Civil Liberties Union is co-counsel in the case.

    These latest documents include autopsy reports that provide new, often gruesome details about detainee deaths ruled to be homicides, including death by strangulation and "blunt force injuries." Other investigative reports describe a mock execution of a teenage Iraqi boy in front of his father, who begged soldiers not to shoot his son, as well as an Army Medic's description of two Iraqis who were "brutally beaten" by U.S. soldiers, in contrast to a captain's contention that they "just got roughed up a bit."

    Significantly, the ACLU said, several documents link the abuses to a "command climate" that encouraged brutality.

    A Staff Sergeant with the 104th Military Battalion, 4th Infantry, rebutting accusations that he improperly supervised an interrogator who assaulted an Iraqi prisoner, replied that comments made by senior leaders that detainees are not enemy prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions "have caused a great deal of confusion as to the status of detainees."

    "In hindsight," he wrote, "it seems clear that, considering the seeming approval of these and other tactics by the senior command, it is a short jump of the imagination that allows actions such as those committed by [name redacted] to become not only tolerated but encouraged."

    The Sergeant also criticized his commanders for soliciting a "wish list" of alternative interrogation techniques and for using phrases such as "the gloves are coming off." His remarks related to a previously disclosed August 17, 2003 e-mail sent by a captain in Military Intelligence asking for a "wish list" of what techniques they would like to use. Interrogators responding to that request sought approval for the use of "low voltage electrocution," "phone book strikes," "muscle fatigue inducement" and the use of dogs and snakes.

    Two previously undisclosed responses to the "wish list" e-mail suggest a debate over the morality and legality of the techniques. One unidentified interrogator said that "our intelligence doctrine is based on former Cold War and WWII enemies," and that "today's enemy" understands "force, not psychological mind games or incentives."

    A second interrogator with the 501st Military Intelligence Battalion, however, stated: "It comes down to standards of right and wrong -- something we cannot just put aside when we find it inconvenient. BOTTOM LINE: we are American soldiers, heirs of a long tradition of staying on the high ground. We need to stay there."

    Singh added: "The record before us establishes beyond any doubt that U.S. forces abandoned moral and legal principles enshrined in the Geneva Conventions and the Army's own field manuals governing the treatment of detainees."

    To date, more than 30,000 documents have been released in response to the ACLU's Freedom of Information Act lawsuit. The latest documents are online at http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/041905/.

    Many of the documents obtained through the FOIA lawsuit formed the basis for a lawsuit filed last month by the ACLU and Human Rights First seeking to hold Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and others accountable for the abuse of detainees. Details about the Rumsfeld lawsuit are online at www.aclu.org/rumsfeld.

    The FOIA lawsuit is being handled by Lawrence Lustberg and Megan Lewis of the New Jersey-based law firm Gibbons, Del Deo, Dolan, Griffinger & Vecchione, P.C. Other attorneys in the case are Jaffer, Amrit Singh, and Judy Rabinovitz of the ACLU; Arthur N. Eisenberg and Beth Haroules of the NYCLU; and Barbara Olshansky and Jeff Fogel of the Center for Constitutional Rights.

    © ACLU, 125 Broad Street, 18th Floor New York, NY 10004 This is the Web site of the American Civil Liberties Union and the ACLU Foundation.
     
  12. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Yeah, you are right.

    We should load our clips full and shoot everyone in Iraq who looks suspicious.

    We should torture Iraqis at will and publish the pictures on the Internet so evildoers the world over will know how mentally unhinged we have become.

    That's the ticket.
     
  13. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    Remember we are dealing with conservatives here who mourn the death of a brain dead woman who has no hope for recovery, yet advocate violence against members of the US Judiciary. A real pathetic bunch.....

    :rolleyes:
     
  14. losttexan

    losttexan Member

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    I find that article too depressing to even make a cynical comment.

    Good Post.
     
  15. FranchiseBlade

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    I take it you aren't familiar with Abu Graihb prison scandal. The vast majority of inmates there were actually innocnet, and not terrorists.
     
  16. FranchiseBlade

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    Who was your old hero, Saddam?
     
  17. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    Very misleading statistic, FranchiseBlade. The more telling statistic is what % of the 'abused' prisoners were innocent? Likely very few, especially considering that the prisoners who are 'abused' are the ones who are likely acting up and not cooperating. Of course, this assumes that your definition of abuse includes putting panties on a prisoner's head. That's how the liberals define it as at least.
     
  18. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    I don't take anything the ACLU says at face value anymore than any other organization. Are you saying that you take as fact every interpretation the ACLU has of every situation?
     
  19. FranchiseBlade

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    You are correct that we dont' know the percentage of tortured prisoners that were innocent. By not cooperating that could also mean innocent people not telling information they didn't have.

    As far as the panties on the head red herring, that is certainly misleading, since we know that far worse went on their, and judging by these memos worse than that was authorized by Sanchez.
     
  20. losttexan

    losttexan Member

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    trade,

    How do you any are guilty? They aren't prisoners of war, so the administration says, they are just being held. No one will ever receive a trial, a hearing, or any sort chance to defend himself or herself. Some may be guilty of defending their country; a few may actually be "terrorists". But let's face it we don't know. Why do assume that they deserve to be miss treated?
     

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