Aftermath of Abortion

I think MadMax has addressed the specific language and substance of Roe V Wade and noted that the decision did put some limits on abortion.

Even though I generally support keeping abortion I think that Roe V. Wade itself is a bad ruling that extrapolated one right while dodging the central question of when does life begin. So we've had a mismatch of contradictory laws that essentially consider a fetus a person in things like criminal law even while abortion is still legal.

At some point I think we will need a solid definition of legal personhood.

 

One more thing-

I refuse to believe that with all the wisdom that non-religious people claim to have and all the wisdom that religious people claim God gives, that we can't find the right solution here.

One that prevents the killing of babies.
And prevents the abuse of women in back allys.

There must be a solution that doesn't kill, maim and destroy for money. Not a absolutely perfect solution, but one that we all could work towards as humans with either God's help or no-god's help.

I don't even think of this as a religious issue. Although I no for religious people it is.

It is to me a basic human issue. Killing the unborn is plain evil.

We must find out where the train got off the track.

We must go back and rebuild the human family.

IF we can do this without any religion at all I am very fine with that, if it means we don't kill the babies.

If the schools can accomplish it, I am fine with that, if it means we stop murdering innocent babies in their own mother's wombs.

When my wife was pregnant if someone had kidnapped her off the streets taken her to a clinic and killed our baby before he was born, I would have been one violated, broken, man. Justice would be screaming for such a violation of basic human dignity.

Now if my wife had this idea on her own and did it, I would die a thousand deaths, for the baby and for her also. What cruel darkness would capture the mind of my wife to make her think wrong was right?

How twisted it must be to really believe that wrong is right. That is the mind trick of the Neo-Nazi, he thinks he is a crusader for right.

There are very sad and unfortunate circumstances women find themselves in when pregnant these days. Some I am involved with are so sad that I cry. But I have never thought that killing the baby was the solution.

That people think this way is so sad. Let us put our hearts and minds together and find the right solution.

Let us stop defending abortion. If no one killed the innocent at all there would be no need for laws.

Laws may come into play at some point. That is why there is political firestorm. But I am much more concerned that we have opinions that we are not killing babies we are removing some unwanted tissue.

We have de-humanized the birth process.

 

Just saying this over and over again does not make it true. This is your opinion, and the opinion of a great many people. However, at least as many believe differently and as such, your contention is not fact, it is merely an opinion.

 

Andymoon- I am not good at expressing things,

I was trying to say I know it is only my opinion and I know others have a very different opinion. That is true for everything.

My point was this difference of opinion disturbs me more than most any other.

It was the difference of opinion on this subject that I was discussing.

We all know that in abortion a living baby in a mother's womb is killed and that the baby has no rights in this killing and is innocent (not guilty or deserving).

Now we can also say that the living embryo in development in the womb is killed during abortion.

The same 'thing' is killed. When it dies on its own we tell the woman your baby is dead. I know of no gynecologist who tells the mom who has a miscarriage your embryo died (or fetus).

So that is one reason I use the word baby.

Now the word is not important to the baby in the womb. The word we use is only a political or debate tool.

Murder is a word that defines the killing of the baby as wrong.

Abortion is a word that defines the killing of the baby as right.

All I was saying is that the killing of the baby is wrong. So that is the word I used.

You must choose the word you like to use to describe how you feel about the killing the baby.

I know many have the opinion that killing the 'growing embryo' is right and good.

 

Do you have the right to make women who have abortions rot in prison?

 

My opinion is the only one that "triumph" for me. Yours is the only one that rules you. You simply have no right to force your opinion on anyone else, including a woman who chooses to have an abortion.

Banning cocaine except to dentists still qualifies as a ban, just as banning abortion the way you would qualifies as a ban.

In some ways they are the same and in some ways they are different. What is your point?

IIRC, I made an analogy and drew some comparisons to other behavior that we have banned with less than desirable results. I agree it is hard to reply to as the analogy and comparisons are so apt.

What the heck are you talking about?

Not to you or I perhaps, but to someone of lesser means or teenagers, they can be prohibitively expensive.

Once it is a "baby," I would support your position, but while it is a fetus and completely dependant on the mother's womb, it is her choice whether to carry that fetus or not.

 

Just because many people do not believe something, does not mean that it is not factual. Many people did not believe the Earth was round, when in fact it is. Just because you don't think a fetus is a life, does not mean that it is not factually a life, it could just mean that you don't believe in that fact.

 

Opinion

 

No, we don't know that. You are expressing an opinion.

If the baby is incapable of sustaining life independantly and the baby still has not developed anything that can be described as human conciousness, then the mother still has a right to do as she wishes with her own body. Period.

A plant is "alive" as well but we don't call that murder. Human rights only apply to human beings. Until that time, the mother's human rights supercedes.

 

I've spelled it out for you 1,000 times. As a society we need to reduce poverty and substantionally decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies. This would reduce the abortion rate probably 75% if not more. This would also have a global affect rather than simply an American affect.

We can compromise and put some legal restrictions on abortion such as 3rd trimester and parental consent, but an outright ban is unAmerican. As an American, we need to find a solution that is consistent with the basic rights afforded to us by our constitution...the very same constitution that grants you to have your opinion in the first place. Don't abuse your constitutional priviliages to express your opinion by squashing the opinions of others.

 

So, when does the baby become a human life? When its 9 months? when its born? when its 2 yrs old? if a baby is born 3 months premature, is it not a human life until its a few months old?

I'm not trying to be a dick. I have my beliefs of when the baby is a life, but I want to know more about another opinion.

 

I agree, 100%.

Whether you are pro-choice or pro-birth, this should be our goal.

 

First, I am sorry for being self serving, not my intent,

and I am glad for your activities to help others.

I think I should say again I have no problem how we define conscieousness nor am I that bothered by terms we use. I choose to use terms that communicate my opinion, as you do also.

I am disturbed by abortion because we know that we are talking about the human birth process. This is how we 'make' babies. It is how it works.

I am disturbed because a living ' whatever you want to call it and whatever conscienciousness you want to give it' is in a mother's womb (and you can decide how old you want to work with, 1 month, 2 months, 8 months along?) and the living " " is killed.

It is troubling that the living human embryo, baby, tissue, unconscience living blob, is not protected.

That is the fundemental problem. We are killing our " " in the womb. That doesn't disturb you, I know, you have not witnessed the procedure, that's ok, but can you at least think outside of that box for a moment and consider what we are doing in the name of convenience and unwantedness.

This is not something to let go lightly of - we are killing little " " that are LIVING. They go in the clinic alive and they come out in a bag.

Actually I preached a sermon at a church on "Why abortion is the fault of Christians" you could have heard a pen drop in the church.

You would be interested in that sermon.

My troubles go down below where you are fishing.

They stem from being a parent and knowing that most parents understand fully the gift of human life. And the value of the living thing in the womb.

I don't need to know how big the heart is, how conscience it is or how human it is to know it is my baby inside my wife.

You really need to talk to some gynecologists that are over 55 yrs old and remember when giving ones life for embryos was a noble profession and one worthy of giving ones life to.

Ask any woman about their first abortion. Ask them if they did not have a struggle of conscience. An honest woman will tell you.

Don't blame the women. Don't blame anyone.

Stop killing those babies that are conceived. They should be protected.

Why is protecting the baby in the womb such a hard concept.

If we could stop every unwanted pregnancy and stop every back ally abortion and stop every harmful thing to a woman that could happen, would you be agreeable to not killing the " "?

 

Another typical right-wing over simplification.

Since preventing 100% of every abortion world-wide is an absolute impossibility under ANY circumstance, we have to do the best we can to reduce them looking at the overall rates. You call it misleading...most would call it reality.

 

rhester --

can you email me that sermon?

 

another typical left-wing generalization

wow, we could go on like this forever.