African-American Republicans outraged

First off, I believe there have been more than plenty threads debating affirmative action. I'd rather this one attempted to reconcile Powell's strong support for affirmative action with his service to an administration which would like to end it.

But I'll bite. Affirmative Action is not meant to be a government handout. And many hard-working graduates of the program would take extreme offense to your characterization of it as such. You might as well ask why pro-choicers like killing babies so much or why anti-war advocates loved 9/11. Further, the program is not mutually exclusive to hard work, dedication or goals. Powell is but one of many examples of this. Yes, this is a free enterprise economy. It is also one that, were it NOT for affirmative action, would still abide racist hiring practices. That is not only my position but also our Secretary of State's position, which is why certain other prominent African-Americans question his loyalty to an administration which seeks to end the program.

 

1. affirmative action isn't applied just to government contracts and the like...it's applied to college acceptance as well.

2. what about laws that say that you can't discriminate when you hire? you can't make hiring/firing decisions based on race? those exist independent of affirmative action. how is that abiding racist hiring practices in the absence of affirmative action?

 

I just find this to be a very subjective statement with no real way to prove it one way or the other. I suppose we agree to disagree.

 

Good questions, Max. My take, which I believe is shared by most proponents of the program is that we still have affirmative action because we still need it, and that I look forward to the day when we don't. Colin Powell is better educated on this issue than I am though. I'd rather hear his defense of the program again. His speech to the convention was inspirational. And then I'd like to hear his rationale for serving an administration which seeks to end the program. I mean, I know everyone likes to argue the merits of the program, but the reason that Belafonte and Jackson made those comments is that they know Powell is serving a president whose positions on issues that affect African-Americans directly contradict his own. That's where the sellout accusations come from. Why not talk about that? Or is it just easier to have the same old debate?

 

i see your point...i would simply say that i don't agree with everything the republican party puts on its platform...but i agree with substantially more of it than i do with what's on the democratic platform...thus, i vote republican. i would be willing to bet that colin powell agrees substantially more with issues across the board as they are addressed by the republican party than he would the democratic party...especially areas he would weigh to be more important.

 

I'll address your other comments later if I can but I just wanted to say in regards to how we're different. It has probably less to do with upbringing than you think. I grew up in the area you probably did, went to Stratford, probably knew some of the same people you did, probably played basketball at the same gyms, and I might even know you or shared a class with you. I am from your "hood", however being Hispanic, Puerto Rican to be exact and really light skinned at that, I got the racial crap that you didn't. So really, you know how we're different? You're white and I'm not and I was taught the difference when I moved here 20 whatever years ago. That's not PC and nice but it's the truth whether you want to admit it or not. I never made my race an issue in this country, that was done for me and to hear DaDa and others tell it (and I'm not calling him anything, I think he's a good guy but just off on his opinion regarding this) we minorities are the ones who make it an issue. So we arrive at different conclusions because you never dealt with what I've dealt with. You've probably never had teachers and students make dirty jokes about your ethnicity while you sit there. You've never been 8 years old and had people scream racial slurs and death threats at your father. You've never seen your brother get beat up because of his curly hair and dark skin. Then there's the really subtle **** like service at restaurants, being followed by store clerks, and getting crap from police. How are we different man? That one thing (race) makes us more different than you would probably like to admit.

 

Timing, you get my sympathy, but it does little to support your argument.

 

Grrr... I was showing him how we're different and how that affects how we feel about the topic. Grr... I didn't address the argument. Grr... and I didn't write that for sympathy or to be a sob story but just to illustrate the differences. Grr..... but thanks anyway.

 

Batman, the charge was that Alan Keyes does not care about black people.

How convenient of you to ignore the subject at hand.

 

I'm surprised no one else has pointed this out. That seems like a pretty bigoted statement-- to imply that Watts obtained something he didn't earn or for which he wasn't properly qualified.

 

I want to know this: what is President Bush's plan to bring me in to the mainstream of politics and society in America. I'm waiting.

Nothing speaks louder to the condition of the Democratic Party in America than Colin Powell's refusal to be a part of it. Who the hell are you people to think you can re-invent Powell to know which party he "really" belongs to?

That is just outrageous. He's a general and can think for himself.

 

He was right.

<A HREF="http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/07/12/campaign.wrap/">Bush rallies state GOP leaders, meets with Kissinger</A>

<i>BALTIMORE (CNN) -- Two days after Texas Gov. George Bush addressed the NAACP's national convention, Vice President Al Gore got a warm welcome Wednesday when he told the group, "Talk doesn't cost much."


Bush, meanwhile, rallied Republican state leaders in Austin and met with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, dismissing Gore's attacks as "the same old sequel to a tired period of time."

"I talked from my heart at the NAACP, and I was honored to be there," Bush said. "He's talking about me, and I'm talking about me, and that's the way I like it."

Bush, the all-but certain Republican nominee for president, spoke Monday to the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the nation's most prominent black political organization. In his remarks, he acknowledged that "The party of Lincoln has not always carried the mantle of Lincoln."........
</i>

 

Damn you Mango. I guess I'll change my opinion on that one. He's not met with them since he became President, not even when their latest conference was in Houston.

"We've been rebuffed," said Kweisi Mfume, national president and CEO of the NAACP. "He came to the convention as a candidate but has declined two years in a row as president. We're one of many voices, but you cannot ignore the nation's oldest civil rights organization."

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/metropolitan/1487243

 

For the record. . i *do* know who condi Rice is


Rocket River

 

What about the affirmative action/quotas going on in colleges around the country. They get a much higher number (and generally superior academically) number of girls than boys. Acceptance, however, is anywhere from 50/50 to 60/40 (in favor of the girls).

This should not be tolerated.

 

As many people I've heard say the same thing about Joe "African American" Schmoe, I think we can let this pass. I don't know anything about J.C. Watts, except that he was a football player, and I'm not agreeing with the assessment of his political rise, but I've heard many a self-described Republican say that about black people that it's hard for me to muster any sympathy.

 

What the hell is that, Refman?

First of all the first page of this thread addressed what you consider to be the "key issue." All about people saying people didn't need to vote as a bloc because they belong to a certain race. I don't dispute that.

Second, your wife is JEWISH??? How progressive of you. In case you didn't know, Jews are far less likely to identify with Democrats than any other "minority." Mostly because they're not really minorities. Especially in America. They're white folks who are entirely unaffected by racism. I know. I'm Jewish. Still, kudos to your wife for her independent thinking. My dad's a Republican too. He disagrees with almost all of their positions, but he is one anyway. It's a matter of tradition (big with Jews). Even though he disagrees with them on everything but taxes, he can't shake his upbringing. I suspect Colin Powell, as a military man, has similar problems.

30 second sound bite? What in Yahweh's name are you referring to? Do you mean that I like sound bites? That Democrats do? That Blacks do? Or are you just employing YOUR usual penchant for simpleminded hyperbole when you don't have anything intelligent to say?

I have never bashed Powell's integrity. Not in this thread or any other. I have tried, in what I believe to be pretty benign terms, to explain why certain prominent Black folks might have a problem with him. Which, by the way Refman, is actually the "key issue." It is also actually what "NOBODY has addressed."

As for the rest of it, you have my email. You decided some weeks ago you were above responding to me due to some ridiculous tiny perceived slight and now you've decided to take what you believe to be sly digs. Okay. Fine. I guess you believe you're so far above my way of talking about such things that that's appropriate. Newsflash. You're not. Email me if you want to talk it out. Otherwise, put me on ignore and get it over with. I've not been disrespectful in this thread to anyone except, maybe, J.C. Watts.

Speaking of J.C. Watts...

J.C. Watts was a plenty fine politician who rose to power inordinantly quickly because he was Black. That's not affirmative action -- it's the Republican Party's party line bastardization of affirmative action. Someone who rises up, ahead of many others more qualified, in order to satisfy quotas. Watts did it and he did fine with his appointment, but make no mistake -- he was there because he was Black. Brian, if you're confused as to why no one's called me out on it, why don't you tell me why I'm wrong. Or, for that matter, why doesn't anyone else?

Better still, why doesn't someone (just anyone) address the main point here. Powell was called out by Blacks because he is serving an administration which opposes that issue which is most dear to his race even while he is on record as passionately supporting it. Instead of taking the easy road of arguing against affirmative action or arguing against Jesse Jackson or arguing against anyone at all saying that a certain race should vote party line, why not try and understand why certain people are upset and address the actual issue? I'm on what I think is my fourth post addressing what I believe is the actual issue and no one has either addressed it or refuted my posit that it is the actual issue. Plenty of 'affirmative action is wrong', a dig at my take on Watts, a personal dig from Refman, and nothing -- I mean NOTHING -- on the basic thesis of my posts. What's up, y'all? Getting lazy?

 

That was the only example you gave in the post I responded to.

Yeah, Bush just appoints minorities to high-ranking positions in his administration. By the way, can you or anyone else define what you think affirmative action is for me? You keep saying so and so is against it...against WHAT? Give me an example of what affirmative action is, and how someone would be against it. Don't give me quotas, the Supreme Court has already said those are unconstitutional.

Powell is black. Belafonte is black. The article features quotes by prominent black americans. If you're still not with me, THIS THREAD IS ABOUT BLACKS. But thanks for insinuating that I'm a racist again. Effective way to get people to see your side.

Maybe they don't believe in looking at race in hiring practices. Seems like that is a position favorable to minorities, no? Also you have not yet established that AA is an important issue regarding minorities.

Maybe, if you're swayed by such things. Appointing minorities to high-ranking positions in the administration is another way to show you care, I suppose. But perhaps you'd prefer that photo-op with LULAC.

Quoting this so I don't hurt your feelings by leaving something out.

I tend to be nicer when I'm not being accused of racism. You'd be surprised!

Maybe later...got to go read O'Reilly's bio again for the 3rd time this morning.


Here's a big smilie for you Timing. I love you.

 

Great Point BigTexxx! The beauty of free enterprise and capitalism is that money is green and thats the only color that matters.