You think that passing up a more qualified candidate just because they don't belong to the right ethnicity is correct? That is screwing the more qualified candidate over, no matter what way you slice it. My mother who teaches school got hired temporarily until they could find a minority candidate. Never mind they had a perfectly qualified teacher, but my mother wasn't the right color (my mother is Japanese). That is not rational hiring someone based on their ethnicity. And as for your ridiculous assertion that we all know how affirmative action (reverse discrimination) turns neighborhoods safe, turns high schools safe, makes teachers care, makes administrators competent, puts a second parent in the home, makes gangs and crack houses disappear, have you ever been to metro ATL? There are just as many crack houses and gangs and ****ty schools as there ever has been and I think it is getting worse. And you're going to tell me affirmative action has a lot of good? Give me a damned break. No argument is dumb if it is correct.
Originally posted by bamaslammer You think that passing up a more qualified candidate just because they don't belong to the right ethnicity is correct? That is screwing the more qualified candidate over, no matter what way you slice it. My mother who teaches school got hired temporarily until they could find a minority candidate. Never mind they had a perfectly qualified teacher, but my mother wasn't the right color (my mother is Japanese). That is not rational hiring someone based on their ethnicity. I think when one student simply based on his ethnicity or race has a statistical disadvantage in our society since the day he is born that's someone being screwed over by our society and when we give that student a chance to prove himself that's the screwing over being undone in a very small way. And as for your ridiculous assertion that we all know how affirmative action (reverse discrimination) turns neighborhoods safe, turns high schools safe, makes teachers care, makes administrators competent, puts a second parent in the home, makes gangs and crack houses disappear, have you ever been to metro ATL? There are just as many crack houses and gangs and ****ty schools as there ever has been and I think it is getting worse. And you're going to tell me affirmative action has a lot of good? Give me a damned break. You detect sarcasm well and since you agree with me that affirmative action does nothing for the conditions I mentioned then it's laughable to assert that beneficiaries of affirmative action give minimal effort, have no sense of self-worth for overcoming obstacles, have no sense of achievement, and are wondering in the back of their minds if they'd fail if they had all the advantages of being white in our society. Furthermore, if you need any help regarding the inferiority complex that you surely must have being a white male in American society never knowing if you and your relatives could have actually competed with people of other races had they not been systematically discriminated against then let me know. I know you probably have trouble sleeping at night just like Colin Powell has when he thinks about how with minimal effort he rode affirmative action to being Secretary of State. We all know Colin has real problems with self-esteem, a sense of achievement, and all the other dumb things you said. Poor Colin...
But see that's the rub, Timing, I'm not white nor am I Asian, I'm a mongrel. I'm a nice racial S'more. So where do I fit in here in your narrow definition? Racial preferences are an injustice, just as those legacy admissions for the blue blood children of alumni. I say, level the playing field. Enact a point system based on economic background and end race as a deciding factor in hiring or school admissions. If people are poor, it will be called into account regardless of their race. Why would you not support that versus idiotic racial preferences? The day we stop being so concerned about what damned color we are, is the day we take a great leap forward as a civilization.
interesting letter to the editor on this issue in monday's WSJ: http://online.wsj.com/opinion/letters?mod=2_0048 -- We Must Move Forward With Honor and Dignity I believe John McWhorter's assessment of "this strain of American race ideology" is correct ("My Master's House," editorial page, Sept. 17). I was a black child caught in the middle of "war zone" Mississippi during the civil rights movement. My parents as well as my grandfather were on the front lines in leadership capacities. At that time, it was more important to lead by faith and courage as well as an understanding of where one was in the historical sense. Dr. Martin Luther King said something to the effect of, "If we are wrong, then God Almighty is wrong." That's real conviction. My father earned his master's degree from Mississippi State in 1968 and my mother, hers, in 1974 from the same institution. My siblings and I were a part of the first wave to integrate the schools in the late 1960s. My parents were convinced that once the legal barriers fell, with hard work and sacrifice we would move forward. Not only that, they believed these things must be done with a sense of honor and integrity. If we move forward, but without honor and integrity, we fail the very essence of the civil rights movement. I believe this "strain of race ideology" is not worthy of all those silent voices who fought so hard to accomplish all that has been gained over the past 40 years. Frederick M. Spight Atlanta
Whites and Asians are the two wealthiest races in the country so it all applies to you just fine. We can also take the opportunity here to squash the whole arbitrary minority argument since as the graph illustrates affirmative action is obviously targetting the people of most need. The cummulative effects of centuries of racism and disenfranchisement are the real injustice and for you to even suggest that the attempted and very narrow remedy of affirmative action is even in the same universe is simply insulting. As I illustrated in my previous post, economic affirmative action is nothing but racial affirmative action in disguise. All that the economic version of it does is add an expensive layer of bureaucracy and make people like you feel better about it by continuing to ignore the issue of race in America which in reality you have an inability to face. The day Americans take responsibility for the society we've constructed is the real day we progress. The whole lets forget what color we are is just pie in the sky rhetoric that replaces tangible plans and goals that conservatives in office have shown they have zero interest in formulating. They just run around quoting Martin Luther King out of context and praising the Colin Powell's of the world while they undermine the program that allowed him to rise to prominence.
What is the ultimate goal of affirmative action? To have all races be equally represented in all jobs? Has it ever dawned on anyone that perhaps this outcome will *never* happen? Will Africa's GDP ever eclipse that of Europe? Will Pakistan ever rise to greater wealth than the United States? What is the ultimate goal? Is it even achievable? Why can minorities not accept that there are differences in performance that are not the result of discrimination?
Timing, where are the stats for mixed races? What if somebody is half-asian, half-black (like Tiger Woods). Should they get the benefits of AA? What about somebody half white, half hispanic? The point is that race is a silly and *arbitrary* way to do things.
Oooh, oooh, can I answer that one even though I know it is really a rhetorical question? Our society has taught *most* (not all) people that it is never *your* fault if something doesn't go your way, it is always someone else's fault. If I was a minority and I saw another minority get a job and not do squat just because of AA, I would be pissed. And the reason being is that I am not going to give anyone the chance or opportunity to say, "Hey, that guy only has his job because of AA." Instead, they are going to say, "Damn, John Doe from accounting really does an outstanding job. He is an integral part of our company."
Timing, What cumulative effects of history? When is affirmative action going to end, when all white and asians no longer have jobs? Give me an ending point with it. By doing college admissions and hiring, using an economic points scale, you level the playing field for EVERY color. When you don't do that, you discriminate against poor whites and asians because they are the wrong color.
I didn't expect much more from you. Hey, don't worry man. If I were a *chosen* minority I would love AA, too. It's something for nothing.
It amazes me that two of the people who defended discrimination in the article that started this thread, or now completely sweeping the discrimination under the rug, and again blaming the victim. Its typical, you guys never gave any solutions to address the problems the article brought up, you just keep spewing the same old convservative crap.
But the article gave an example of a problem that was someone else's fault, and oooh oooh, Manny just chose to ignore that, which I'm sure you have been taught by society.
Riiight. You just exposed the problem. The culture of considering themselves "the victim" is part of the problem. Anybody care to address the mixed race scenario I brought up earlier?
Anybody care address the problem brought up in the article that started the thread. So I guess the people in the study weren't victims of discrimination?
Guys guys guys, this is all well and good if we're having a big ole, round table discussion on Social Engineering sponsored by the Heritage foundation, but I am asking for real world information, not quasi philosphical ramblings about merit and victimization. Until you guys can come up with some evidence of the harm that Affirmative Action has done to society, rather than just massage your own egos with intuitive blather, I'll take its overwhelming real world support (and the UMich studies, among others, that have shown beneficial effects, I'm not going ot bother linking to them as I have before, so look them up yourself) over your armchair theorizing any day. Save it for the next Cato Institute article.
This is not meant to insult, this is an honest question: Why do people think that blacks ought to perform as well as whites in the United States, when across the world, this is not the case? Show me examples of blacks performing up to a level of whites in any other country and I may reconsider my opinion. Sub-sahara Africa is an economic wasteland with the exception of South Africa, a country with a large infusion of whites. Again, this is not meant to insult, just a question.
