Notice that most of the pro-choice AND pro-adoption people are wanting to delete their own baby yet reserve the right to adopt someone elses. I think Juan's initial question was really about using adoption as an alternative to abortion. Abortion like having an organ removed? When was the last time a kidney went to kindergarten. Jeff: that "pre-human form" has arms, legs, toes, kidneys, and a brain et cetera. How can you assert that it is just consciousness? Granted the she-fetus doesn't much compare to Denise Richards (touted elsewhere on this BBS Hangout) but neither does Irene Ryan (formerly of the Beverly Hillbillies! It is such an irony to me that half of these abortions are killing LITTLE GIRLS. That is really a pro-feminist position! I saw a young girl on television, 20 or so, who was repeatedly raped by two "men", got pregnant, had the baby, and arranged adoption to eager and loving parents in another country. She still loves her baby and has plans and privileges to stay in contact. Heroic! Creation occurs when the egg is fertilized by a sperm. A human baby is in development from that moment forward. Anyone who argues that point is deluding themselves for some self-serving purpose (usually to justify an abortion). We are with child now. We've seen a picture of the little one. My wife is about two months along. That heart is just beating away of it's own volition pumping blood through its veins. In the not-too-distant future (and well before birth), s/he will start to exhibit facial expressions and maybe even have the hiccups. S/he will nap and exercise and probably even explore the world s/he lives in. All this shouting about women's rights, what about the child's rights? ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. PowerbizOnline.com [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited March 18, 2001).]
Rich: I've really discussed this more than I care to. We'll just have to disagree on this one because I don't believe I will ever agree with you and you probably won't ever agree with me. I have quite a few pro-life friends who I never argue over abortion with or even discuss it. Since this argument boils down predominantly to ideology and difference of opinion, I'd rather just leave it as it is. In all honesty, it makes me feel pretty crappy anyway even talking about it. ------------------ "Oh, God. I wish I was a loofa."
Might I suggest that you explore why you feel crappy talking about it? Examine your position. I don't feel crappy at all in asserting my position. Balls to the wall! ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. PowerbizOnline.com [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited March 19, 2001).]
I'm sure he feels crappy about it the same reason I do. We have an honest disagreement about what is inside a woman's body, but we have to hear from you far right wing zealots that we're murderers. We know we're not, but we still don't like to be called that. ------------------ www.swirve.com...The reason Al Gore invented the internet.
The problems of the world can't really be addressed by adoption. yes, there are plenty of people trying to adopt. Problem is, the world isn't producing enough in terms of gross GDP to support its aggregate population at a high standard of living. Fetuses are not sentient. In the early stages, they do not dream, have brain waves, or feel emotions. We need to control population. Obviously, pre-fertilization methods of birth control are preferable. But we need to worry about human beings that are suffering right now. I *do* actually believe abortion should be banned around the 5th month, which is when the neurons begin to connect in the brain. ------------------ Boston College - Big East -East Division Regular Season Champs Worst to First in 2001!
I have a completely clear conscience. I have no qualms with my belief. I don't like continually arguing over it because arguments do not promote accord, they promote discord and I am not in favor of creating that unless I feel as if some end can be reached. It cannot. I will never agree with your point of view nor you with mine. That is as far as we can take it. There are no winners in this arument. For me, truth is not an absolute but rather a subjective belief based on your ideology and cumulative experience. I don't view life in that way and I have no interest in winning an argument based on something that subjective. Rich, I also believe that the lives of animals are as valuable as the lives of humans which is why I don't eat meat. When you do, you are contributing to the destruction of life I consider valuable. However, I do not rush to judge your behavior or try and tell you what you believe is wrong. I simply disagree, let it be and appreciate who you are rather than what you are not. What I am asking is for you to afford me the same respect for what I believe as I afford you. I would rather focus on commonalities rather than disagreement. RM95 & Tex: I appreciate you guys sticking up for me. That was very nice. To answer yours and Rich's question, I feel crappy about this because it creates disharmony for all of us. This is a disagreement that will not go away anytime soon. Constantly arguing about it brings no peace to anyone and, ultimately, that's what I'd like to be about. I am the worst at creating peacefulness sometimes. This thread is a very good example. That bothers me so I am trying to refrain from it now. ------------------ "Oh, God. I wish I was a loofa."
Jeff: Just out of curiosity, why do you think life is sacred? Is plant-life fundamentally different from animal-life? Is eating plants perfectly fine, or is it simply a lesser violation? How do you deal with the near certainty that if we *didn't* eat meat, then there would be humongous ecocrises. What about animals consumption of other animals? Just curious . I understand being vegetarian for the health benefits... but the spiritual side of it has always confused me. ------------------ Boston College - Big East -East Division Regular Season Champs Worst to First in 2001!
It is difficult for me to explain beyond saying that I do hold all life sacred including plants, however, we do what we can. I realize that, for my existence, I have to eat something. Plants are my choice. I do what I can to improve the lives of living creatures - feeding and/or caring for animals, giving money to organizations that support that, not eating meat, growing plants (well, my wife anyway), etc. I don't look at ecocrises in that way. We RAISE cattle for food as well as poultry and harvest (and grow) fish. Removing them from our consumption AND returning them to their natural place among the rest of the carnivorous world would simply place us back into harmony with nature. In fact, thousands of acres of rainforest every day are being plowed under for ranches to raise more cattle for our consumption. There are plenty of predators for the animals we eat without our intervention. I am not naive enough, however, to believe there is an end to this process at anytime in the forseeable future. I just do what I can for my reasons. Everyone else is free to lead the life they choose as well. ------------------ "Oh, God. I wish I was a loofa."
One other thing... On your animals eating other animals point, I don't judge their behavior any more than I would judge yours. They live how they were intended. We choose to live as carnivors, however, while lions, birds (whatever) simply live based on how they have come to be. We do not need meat for survival - most of us anyway. Therefore, it is our choice to do no harm if we feel it to be something we want for ourselves. ------------------ "Oh, God. I wish I was a loofa."
Jeff: Thoughtful and conscienscous post! I appreciate your reply... I've had too many vegans over here call me a murderer, and I'm glad you didn't. I don't think I've ever seen a post of yours that hasn't been life-affirming, generous, and well-thought out. I appreciate that alot. ------------------ Boston College - Big East -East Division Regular Season Champs Worst to First in 2001!
Thank you, haven. That is VERY kind of you and I appreciate it. I learned from a very good influence - my wife. She has been a vegetarian for 12 years and never once gave me a hard time when I still ate meat and I've never heard her make anyone feel anything but comfortable when it comes to her choices even when others make her feel stupid and even unhealthy for those choices. She's a great influence. ------------------ "Oh, God. I wish I was a loofa."
Over where? Don't let those vegans get you down! I am vegan and they annoy me too! Another point about ecology...approx 80% of corn, for example, is used to feed the cattle that is raised for consumption. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
OK fetus, I'm gonna start putting this machine into my uterus and if you get aborted then it's your own fault...
I didn't call anyone a murderer. You did. I simple have a clear conscience and suffer no guilt about my position. If you don't have a clear conscience, something is wrong. I was simply suggesting that he have the courage to face that. What is the worst thing I've caused? And what is the worse thing a pro-abortionist causes? I'm not trying to be popular here; I'm more interested in saving INNOCENT LIVES. If a woman had a tumor, I would have no objection to her having it removed EVEN THOUGH I'VE NEVER HAD A TUMOR. How do I do that? How about some common sense! A baby is, however, drastically different because it involves another human life. I've stood over all my babies being born and seen the wonderful critters come into the world. Have you? This nonsense about 15 minutes earlier or 4 months ago s/he wasn't a human is biologically, intellectually and spiritually dishonest. We only disagree until we agree. Let the truth win! ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. PowerbizOnline.com
Jeff: Here is what breaks my heart: You are allowing a life and death decision be a function of a simple opinion. Sorry, but I see that as irresponsible. Humanity at 5 months, huh, when neurons connect. Are you sure? Shouldn't we err on the side of caution given that a life is at stake? Don't give up on minds being changed; mine was! ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. PowerbizOnline.com
Here's what breaks mine. You are making a life and death decision every time you eat a piece of chicken or order another steak or have some fish for dinner or a turkey sandwich on Thanksgiving. Shouldn't you give the concept of a soul for animals the benefit of the doubt as well? I'm not asking you to do something different, just that you are calling me irresponsible for a belief while not even looking in the mirror at your own beliefs. I am not trying to make a medical decision. I am not supporting abortion for myself. I am saying that it shouldn't be my decision for someone else. If you cannot accept that, that's ok, but don't continually ask me to. All I ask is that you respect my choices. If you can't do that, I'll ask that you simply let it go. If you can't do that, I will no longer respond. ------------------ "I swallowed a lot of agression...along with a lot of pizzas."
Don't respond if you wish, but I'll never equate a turnip or a chicken to a human. ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. PowerbizOnline.com
But I do consider chickens to have value equal to humans (I never mentioned anything about vegetables). It is no more absurd for me to believe that they have souls and value than it is for you to not believe it. If I were to tell you that eating that chicken, in the strictest sense of many eastern beliefs, ensures you will be reincarnated in a lower form next time around, you'd think it was ridiculous. But, it isn't as if I came about how I feel arbitrarily. I didn't just flip through the big picture book of spiritual belifs with my eyes shut and put my finger down in some random spot and say, "That's what I believe." I've spent the past 12 years of my life looking into every belief I've ever held and studying the practices of dozens of other people (including Christians) before coming to where I am. And I am WAY off from where I want to be. I still have more learning to do than I'll be able to grasp in this lifetime. I don't take this discussion lightly nor do I view what you are saying as wrong. I think long and hard before responding to these. Your obvious lack of agreement and respect for the things I hold sacred doesn't change the fact that I appreciate your desire to express how you feel and disagree. That's why this argument will never be won on either side, which was never my intent anyway. You don't believe in reincarnation and don't view animals as having value equal to humans. I do. Neither of us can be right because it is based on our subjective beliefs and faith in them. I can no more object to your feelings than I can object to the words you use to describe them. The thoughts belong to you and I respect them. However, going round and round won't ever solve anything. It will only serve to upset us and I have no interest in that. ------------------ "I swallowed a lot of agression...along with a lot of pizzas."
Okay, I'll be the guy who promotes the killing and eating of chickens and insists upon the protection of pre-birth children. Forget the turnips; I don't like them anyway. Don't take it personally, but you're right, I don't respect a viewpoint that has more interest in protecting chickens than human babies. I say more because you seem to be more willing and passionate about standing up for chickens than for human babies. Have I got that right? By the way, I'm in no pain about this. ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. PowerbizOnline.com [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited March 21, 2001).]
