it's relevant. these people are telling everyone that adoption is the solution to unwanted pregnancies. but are they doing their part? those analogies don't work for me. this would be more like a business owner who supports affirmitive action except if it's his own business in question. or if someone supported gay rights but doesn't want any one in their family to be gay. ------------------
Jeff, Maybe if you were mugged and killed you conciously made that choice (to be mugged and killed), and since you believe in reincarnation being murdered isn't that big a deal to you. Is it? Or what about your friends, or family, would it be a big deal if they were murdered? Would you invalidate someone else's "belief" that killing indiscriminately was okay? I mean arguing over beliefs is one thing, but saying someone should be able to end the life of someone else, just because they want to is another. Then so would life as an adult.... I mean if dying or living really doesn't matter, then what are you doing? --------------------------- My thoughts on Abortion ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page
Can we get back on the subject, please? Actually, no, talk about what you want. But, outlaw, let me ask you this: Regardless of the motives, possible or actual, and the hypocrisies, possible or actual, of pro-life activists in recommending adoption, what do you think -- as a pro-choice proponent (I'm not assuming too much here, am I?) -- is the merit of adoption as an alternative to abortion? Btw, I did get your point that recommending adoption is not solely a pro-life position and pro-choice advocates also sometimes recommend it. I didn't think I ever couched the question about adoption in pro-life terms. But, if there was that implication, then I just want to say: point well-noted. ------------------ RealGM Gafford Art Artisan Cakes
I don't know if I really want to respond to this, but here goes. I am pro-choice. It is the woman's body, let her choose. As far as abortion being murder, I don't think so. Just my opinion. With regards to adoption vs. abortion, I think it really depends on the individual situations. For example, if I were to get pregant because I was raped, there would be NO WAY that I would want that baby. I would not feel right bringing a baby into this world that was conceived in hate. On the other hand, if I were unable to care for the baby because I was too young, financially unable, etc., I would consider adoption a viable alternative. However, this would be my choice. I'm not saying every woman would feel this way in these situations. Being pro-choice, I have no problems with adoption. What I have a problem with is people taking away my choice. ------------------ Poopy!
Juan: Good topic. I am pro-choice and I am also strongly pro adoption. If my wife and I wanted children, we would most likely adopt before having a child of our own. I think rimmy makes good points, as usual, about the premise that abortion isn't necessarily seen by everyone as murder, therefore, the option of adoption may go beyond the level of difficulty a person is willing to face to take their pregnancy to term. As for adoption being an alternative to abortion, I think it could be in some cases. Remember, however, that most women who seek abortions are poor and a big percentage are not white. It is VERY difficult to adopt children who are not white in this country and even tougher if the child has deformities or illnesses like fetal alcohol syndrome or problems relating to mothers using drugs during their pregnancy. It is also very likely that a poor pregnant mother may simply not be able to afford to bring her pregnancy to term. Many women have lost their jobs because of absences related to pregnancy especially in lower paying work. One final thought on the difficulties of adoption. If the numbers of children given up for adoption increased, would the supply eventually eclipse the demand? Parents have spent millions with fertility doctors over the past decade and shunned the idea of adoption. There is still a real stigma attached to adopting a child. I don't agree with that, but it is a reality. Changing those attitudes could prove even more difficult than getting women to choose adoption over abortion. I think that, in specific circumstances, adoption should strongly be considered by the parents of the child as the first option in an unwanted pregnancy. However, it isn't right for all circumstances. ------------------ The Walrus was Paul.
Good lord. I thought we killed DREAMer off. We've been round and round on this subject before, so I feel no need to repeat myself. If you honestly believe that I don't care who lives or dies, who is murdered or what happens to my friends and family, you haven't paid much attention. I have no interest in explaining my beliefs to you again, DREAMer. I gave my opinion and that should be enough. You, of all people, should know how I feel. ------------------ The Walrus was Paul.
Way to go Jeff!!!!! You brought the dead to life! mrpaige, I have actually heard of ODD. It essentially means you hate everyone including yourself...usually very violent towards self, sometimes others. Generally comes about through feeling unwanted or unloved, etc. My former bss's grandson had it. He had to go to a mental hospital. He would break his own bones. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
As an aside, if a fetus is not a living being, would that mean that they had not yet entered the cycle of life - death - rebirth believed by many religions. Can you be reincarnated before you are incarnated? ------------------ "We messed with the Bull, and we got the horns." -- Larry Brown "quote" from AirBullard.com
I assume there are different levels of affliction with this particular disorder (just as with pretty much every disorder) as these kids were listed as having "mild" mental disorders. MentalHealth.com lists ODD as this: Diagnostic Criteria A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least 6 months, during which four (or more) of the following are present: often loses temper often argues with adults often actively defies or refuses to comply with adults' requests or rules often deliberately annoys people often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior is often touchy or easily annoyed by others is often angry and resentful is often spiteful or vindictive Note: Consider a criterion met only if the behavior occurs more frequently than is typically observed in individuals of comparable age and developmental level. The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning. The behaviors do not occur exclusively during the course of a Psychotic or Mood Disorder. Criteria are not met for Conduct Disorder, and, if the individual is age 18 years or older, criteria are not met for Antisocial Personality Disorder. I was just noting that I had never heard of some of these disorders before. (Actually, ODD and Dysthymic Disorder were the only two I had never heard of). ------------------ Houston Sports Board Help Finance My Movie - Buy A T-Shirt or Make a Donation
It does get rather complex, doesn't it. Animation in human form is not necessary for "incarnation." Incarnations can take a wide variety of forms dependent upon different things. Trees, plants, animals, insects, humans, basically any living creature can be considered an incarnation. It is not necessary to be human for that to occur. However, there are some basic rules dependant upon the religion regarding conscious behavior. The key is that, particularly in Asian religions, the code of conduct and attention to NOW is what is considered most important - style over substance or belief over dogma, essentially. Each religion goes in depth into all the possibilities, but it would take too long to go over them here. ------------------ The Walrus was Paul.
Isn't it easier to just give your opinion and not have to discuss it, or explain it further? Yeah, I guess so. What an enjoyable conversation where one person can give their opinion, another person question it, and the first person not answer... whew fun! DISCUSS - (dis - kus'), v.t. to talk or write about in detail; consider the various aspects of. -------------------------- My Thoughts on Abortion
DREAMer: We've had this discussion before. In fact, I think I've told you my beliefs more than I've told most people. What you want is for me to give you some opportunity to dissect them in front of everyone so I'll look like an idiot. You took the same approach with Mormonism and then left the board in a Jenna-like drama-queen-ish huff because you didn't feel free to express yourself . You want answers to your obviously leading, ridiculous questions? Ok. Maybe if you were mugged and killed you conciously made that choice (to be mugged and killed), and since you believe in reincarnation being murdered isn't that big a deal to you. Is it? Or what about your friends, or family, would it be a big deal if they were murdered? If I was murdered, I really wouldn't care. After all, I'd be dead. Personally, I can't really imagine how you could possibly ask a question like your second one, but I'll give it a response. If my family or friends were murdered, I would be heartbroken and sad. However, like everyone else who suffers the loss of a loved one, I would learn how to survive and go on with my life. I would also feel comforted in the belief that I would, at some point, meet them again in another lifetime because part of my belief system is that each person on our path that we meet is someone we have met before. So, as the Dali Lama has said, no one is a stranger to him, just long lost friends finally reunited. Would you invalidate someone else's "belief" that killing indiscriminately was okay? I mean arguing over beliefs is one thing, but saying someone should be able to end the life of someone else, just because they want to is another. Your belief is what it is. I won't second guess that. However, I simply don't agree with you. Some people agree about some things and disagree about others. This is an example of the latter. Because I don't consider it "ending a life," it takes on a different connotation for me. Again, it is simply a disagreement. I mean if dying or living really doesn't matter, then what are you doing? Are you kidding? Did you actually read my original post? I said we are all here to learn and grow. That's what living, no matter what your beliefs are, is. If all you are doing is waiting to go to heaven, why be here at all? Why work? Why learn? Why have children? What is the point? Of course living and dying matters, but I don't view either as the beginning or end as you do. I view them as simply another step on the path rather than the beginning or end of that path. I'm not sure what your fascination is with me and my personal beliefs or why you bother continually bringing it up especially considering your self-imposed hiatus. However, I have no interest in opening myself up to ridicule for beliefs that are as sacred to me as yours are to you. ------------------ "Oh, God. I wish I was a loufa."
Man, what happened to this thread? We were talking adoption for awhile and then... it just went... somewhere else. ------------------ RealGM Gafford Art Artisan Cakes
Yeah, I liked it better when all our threads ended up with nothing but references to the Simpsons. ------------------ Houston Sports Board Help Finance My Movie - Buy A T-Shirt or Make a Donation
Maybe as an alternative to abortion we could lock the unwanted child in the attic, especially in the case of twins. But you have to make sure it is the evil twin that you lock up. ------------------ "We messed with the Bull, and we got the horns." -- Larry Brown "quote" from AirBullard.com
One other point on that... Human incarnation is considered by Hindus, at to a lesser extent but nearly the same by Buddhists, as the highest incarnation. The better your birth (the advantages, trauma, etc) are the direct result of karma created in another lifetime. They believe that humans, due to our consciousness, are given the gift of enlightnement. We have the ability as the result of our conscious behavior to break free of the cycle of death and rebirth and attain Nirvana - basically, heaven for the soul. It varies slightly from religion to religion, but the idea that we are born into priveledge (to be in the category we are in as those with enough money even to own a computer, let alone spend time on the net, is more than the vast majority of the world has) as compared to the rest of humanity as well as the plant and animal kingdom, is reflective of this opportunity to move forward to enlightenment. Hope this explains it. ------------------ The Walrus was Paul.
Jeff, you and I think so much alike, it's really scary. Every time I think of a point to make, you iterate it before I can put my fingers to the keyboard. Therefore, I'll go ahead and add a purfunctory, albeit useless, "Go, Jeff!" and leave it at that...as I'm on a lunch break and don't have time to add anything else. Which really upsets me now that DREAMer's come temporarily out of retirement. Gascon ------------------ "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another which states that this has already happened." Douglas Adams
Absolutely untrue. The way I see it is if I see a weakness in an argument I'm going to point it out. If it can then be explained in a different way then that strengthens the argument. But, hey that's just me. Again, untrue. Look at the timing of when I went on my sabbatical. It did not coincide with the discussion we had on Mormonism (One in which I feel never was allowed to be fully discussed). It did not coincide with anything other than my lack of enjoyment from posting (which was a culmination of many things). And, if I did leave in "a Jenna-like drama-queen-ish huff", then why didn't anyone know I was gone? Where was my big self indulgent goodbye thread? Was it because I was not missed? Maybe. Or was it because I didn't make a big deal out of my leaving? Most likely. You want to know why I question what you believe.... okay. I think you're a pretty bright guy from what I've read over the past few years You have differing views than me on some things, which interests me Maybe, by discussing differences I, you, and any one else who gets involved in the discussion can learn something from it This BBS forum gives me the chance to discuss topics I rarely get to talk about in my everyday life I just don't see why you get so defensive about it. If I come across as a jerk or too strong, I apologize. I am genuinely interested in what other people think the majority of the time. If you preferred that I didn't question anything you post, just say so, and it's done. But, I think everyone would be the lesser for it. -------------------------- Do you disagree that whether the organism in a woman's uterus is a human being or not that it is still alive? It is a living being regardless of whether someone wants to equivocate on the word "human". So, therefore it is ending a life. It tells me in the Bible what I'm here to do. Live a good life and spread the Word of God. I do see it as a beginning, but not as an end. Christians do believe in life after death, as I'm sure you know. ----------------------------- My Thoughts on Abortion [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited March 17, 2001).]
Do you disagree that whether the organism in a woman's uterus is a human being or not that it is still alive? It is a living being regardless of whether someone wants to equivocate on the word "human". So, therefore it is ending a life. I do not believe that it is a human life. I believe that it is conciousness in pre-human form. That consciousness continues to remain with or without the form. The form is irrelavent. I think of life like water. If water is in a cup and the cup is broken, the water remains even though it is all over the floor or table. If it evaporates or is frozen, it is still molecules of water. Nothing has changed just because the form has. It is not within our power to determine, scientifically, that humans have consciousness or a soul. Therefore, life, in terms of the law, begins when science can determine. I do not believe it is my place to make decisions for others based on beliefs even I cannot validate for myself. It would be impossible for me to determine absolutely who we are, where we come from, etc. All I have is belief and faith. So, I do not believe in asking others to restrict their completely legal behavior simply because someone wants to impose their beliefs on them. So, I do not believe that a fetus is human life, first. Second, I don't believe that we have the right to make the decision otherwise because we do not know what the real truth is. To be honest, DREAMer, I really don't want to go into this any further. I find it very frustrating and very un-peaceful (if that's even a word) and that is mostly my fault. I would rather just agree to disagree. If you want to ask specific questions about what I believe for myself, I'm happy to answer. But, I would prefer not to attach them to a concept as controversial and devicive as abortion. ------------------ "Oh, God. I wish I was a loofa."
