well said! it's freaking comical to see these "arguments" peole throw out there about JVG,e.g. doesnt play rookies, ruined the rockets with roster moves, etc etc. It really is amusing to see these people still mention them like they actually hold any water.
Forced by injuries to play those guys, and even stated that he was not comfortable doing it, but I concede that he occassionally...grudgingly played rookies. I agree with you here, I think JVG and CD both are responsible for the roster that was created, you can not argue it sucked without putting some of the blame on everyone in the organiztion. While that is correct, the rules have changed significantly since then, and make that offense somewhat obsolete, the fact that you can double team a guy without the ball makes it very difficult to run that offense effectively, and to top it off...Yao is NO Hakeem. Ummmmm, this is silly, the reason is obvious, JVG designed his entire offense around TMac as the creator, if he is out the rest of the house of cards fell apart....this year, it is more designed around the entire team...THIS IS A MAJOR COACHING DIFFERENCE. Let's see how the final averages are when we have played a full 82 games. Some of the dropoff has to be attributed to the change in system and personel if the team is not majory improved offensively with everyone back in March or Aprilish...then your side will be right. I was one of the people who vastly overated the teams ability and willingness to play team ball. But, if the team rallies (which I think it will with a softer schedule and more acclimation to each other) then 2nd round is still plausible, and that is better than 50 wins. Uh, Adelman is stubborn but he still is willing to try new combinations when something is not working....JVG's answer was...."Work harder" Fair point, but Bonzi was fat, Steve is injured - big difference. I disagree, I think the coaching move had to be made, JVG had his chance, he failed, time to try something else. We shall see if the organization chose wisely. DD
So your stats prove that JVG did indeed play Luther before the injuries, which was my original point when people say he NEVER develops rookies. Pretty good PT for a mid to late first round pick. If I recall correctly, Anderson was the only one who started the season injured and Lucas doesn't count, seeing as he was a PG (though I guess Luther played both positions)
No, actually he wasn't. Luther played immediately and what PF injury caused Chuck to play? Regardless, he could have signed veterans instead of playing rookies (in Hayes case, who didn't have a gauranteed contract) True and true Actually, a ton of the offense last year was designed around Yao in the post and the inside/outside game. I would say about half of the offense was centered around that, with the other half high screen/rolls for TMac Yeah, I don't think we can compare apples to apples unless it's just our offensive production up to this point...not full season to partial season. I think our offense should be improved, but it all depends on TMac's willingness to integrate, a fact you've stated numerous times as well IIRC Yes it is, but we need to get to the playoffs first I disagree. I think if JVG had the roster that Adelman had, he may have been more open to play other players. Unless you consider Vspan and Novak, two guys who were obviously not ready to play much in the NBA, as answers from the bench. No, Steve didn't play for the first part of the year because he was lethargic in practice and out of shape...kind of like Bonzi last season (though I think Stevie has a better attitude). He is sitting now b/c of injuries. Which makes me wonder, when Bonzi refused to play for JVG b/c he hated the system, many blamed JVG. If TMac comes back and refuses to play the system, will we blame Adelman? Doubtful. just a thought that popped into my head as I was typing this Totally agree. JVG didn't get us past round one, so we did need a change. No dount. that said, I would see it as a bigger failure if RA cannot get us out of round one, as our bench is far superior this year to last year. I hope he does and we go far...
7-14min is not enough when you're a 6'3 SG with potential(at the time) and you're only competition is a slow and declining 6'0 David Wesley.. Brooks would have had a more difficult time getting any playing time with Mike James, Alston, Steve under JVG, despite their struggles. my point wasn't that JVG didn't play rookies at all.. but that he only played them sparingly even when his trusted set rotation players struggled, and only increased their minutes when players that played the majority of the minutes of said rookie's position went out with injuries.. and even then hesitantly, and under great scrutiny. and only by consistent minutes brought on by injuries, could he see that certain rookies could be capably implemented into his rotation. therefore, i doubt JVG would've given Scola the minutes and room for mistakes to be where he is now, as he came in looking foul prone(a Hayes issue) and a bit lost(things that kept Novak, V-span out of playing time with JVG) his first few games. Remember that Hayes was initially cut, and it was through trial and error of other 'scrubs' and developmental league "talent", that he was brought back, and only after Juwon's injury that he was allowed to work through his fouling issue and hence given a chance to show he belonged in the rotation by doing what he had been doing before.. playing good defense and rebounding. so this whole "JVG could've used this bench last year" argument doesn't make sense.. This bench is Luis, Brooks, Bonzi, Mike James, Novak, Francis, Deke. The only 3 that are really contributing, are two rookies that have familiar things going against them, under JVG's heavily scrutinizing "efficiency and discipline" strict coaching philosophy, and Bonzi who quit on him last year, who obviously doesn't work under any authoritarian philosophy. The only player from that list I see getting the most playing time is Mike James, and maybe Deke as well. And in JVG's system they'd most likely be performing better, but then we'd be 1 and a half strong instead of 3 in our bench. A iso,3pt shooting one dimensional player, and a shot blocker. Instead of a likely 12-14ppg 8rpb PF with a lowpost and midrange game, a lightning fast PG that can dish, drive and shoot with potential, and a motivated offensive weapon in Bonzi.
I disagree with most of your posts, particularly, disagree with this statement. Last year bench: Head, Bonzi, Howard, Vspan, ... This year bench: Head, Bonzi, Scola, Brooks, Francis, James, ... How can you say our bench is far superior this year to last year? Francis isn't the old Francis, and James isn't the old James. They didn't play very good this year and are almost out of rotation. Scola and AB are rookies. Do you want to say rookie Scola is far superior to Howard, and Brooks is far superior to Vspan? Howard is a favorite player of JVG, and played very good in last regular season. Also, Adelman picked Brooks in the draft and Bonzi would not return for JVG. As for the starters, yes, ROX has the same 5 starters. Beware that Battier, Hayes, and Alston are JVG's favorite players but may not be Adelman's. Battier and Hayes are pure defenders, who fit very well in JVG's defensive system but not in Adelman's. When you give these players to Adelman, who is a balanced coach, to me, it is like ... when you order a steak in a restaurant, the waitress give you a fish instead. Why did Adelman play the same 5 starters? He had no choice. Do you really want to start a rookie right now? Believe it or not, for coach Adelman, the combination of starters and bench this year is not better than last year, maybe even worse. And again, please give Adelman at least 2 years.
Bonzi last year and Bonzi this year are two totally different players. Last year he was fat (larger than he has ever been...I know traditionally he is heavy), admittedly was pissed about his contract situation, played with little to no effort and actually QUIT on the team. This year he is slim, actually showing up to practices and games AND is playing for a new contract. So saying we had Bonzi last year is not accurate at all. Scola is a much better player already than Juwan. All J-Ho could do was hit an open jump shot. He offered no running game, had a pretty shabby low post game outside of an extremely "iffy" jump hook, didn't rebound, was a poor defender and didn't hustle. He was good for knocking down open jumpers and that's about it. Scola brings energy, defense, a low post presence as well as the ability to run the break and hit open jumpers (though Juwan was better at it at this point, but LS is improving) Brooks is a major upgrade over any PG last year (Lucas, VSpan). He is a guy that is already getting good minutes, makes good decisions and finishes at the basket. Francis and James have played poorly...you are right. However, either of them is an upgrade over Lucas or Vspan. Having them, along with Brooks, also eliminates the necessity of playing Luther at the backup PG spot, which killed us defensively as well as offensively, as I am sure we can agree that Luther is not a good decision maker and is best suited shooting open shots. I guess we can agree to disagree, but I can't see how you could compare the two benches EDIT: Also, I don't dislike RA and don't want JVG as coach. I just think it's ridiculous how so many of you skew the facts just because you all have a personal vendetta against the guy, who I admit was hard to like at times and could be frustrating.
I was ready to let go, seeing that you can't deal with the fact that Bonzi outplayed the starting pg in shooting percentage, rebounding and scoring efficiency. Then I see this crap from you, wow, cow boy, your simply throwing out blank statements like "Bonzi made up injuries" is far from documented facts! Please back up your "Bonzi made up injuries" claim with documented facts, or I'd have no choice but to classify you as a joke who likes to pull things out of nowhere.
This is funny. "shew the facts" and "personal vendetta"? How come? Is there any benefit? Yes, you can call me a hater, but there is nothing relate to personal. It is because he destroyed my favorite team ROX and destroyed many players.
Dude, are you still trying to compare Bonzi to Rafer? So did you want Bonzi to be the starting PG? If not, please stop responding to me. I have no idea why you keep bringing up Bonzi and Rafer Alston. AND OF COURSE HE REBOUNDS BETTER THAN A PG...sheesh. And I think that 90% of the NBA had a better field goal % than Rafer...he was terrible. But what in the hell does that have to do with Bonzi Wells? Nah, he didn't make up injuries. A root canal usually keeps you out of the lineup for two weeks, doesn't it? I mean, I had one 3 years ago and I made it to work the next day, but then again, I must be really tough And I told you before, Cow Boy , that Bonzi has admitted this season to not giving the effort last year and not participating b/c he was pissed about his contract and didn't like the coach and one of his friends quoted him to ESPN the Magazine via Ric Bucher. Go find the magazine yourself. I believe the quote was, "The Rockets paid me 25% of what I am worth, and that is exactly what they are going to get." Though I am sure that it was just some random person wanting to be ANONYMOUSLY quoted in a blurb in a crappy magazine . Oh, and he QUIT on the team right after he was promised more playing time by JVMonster. I forgive him, now, but facts are facts. So how about this...I stop responding to you (like I should have done before this post when I said I would) and you stop talking to me about a comparison between Bonzi freaking Wells and Rafer Alston. I don't care. Perhaps other people are into comparing stats of players that play different positions, but I am not one of them. Talk to them about it.
You PERSONALLY dislike him, right? Please tell me who he destroyed? Yao got better with him as a coach...turned into a monster. Who did he destroy? VSpan? The guy didn't destroy this team, in fact we have the same starting five, correct? I can agree that he didn't get us out of round one. He got fired. Justice served. But I don't see how you saying he destroyed the rockets and rockets players wouldn't qualify you as someone who has issues with him and would be skewed on the facts
"The guy didn't destroy this team, in fact we have the same starting five, correct?". No, nothing can be changed overnight, it need time. He didn't do anything good to ROX. He destroyed Yao, Vspan, Boki, Novak, and etc. Yao should be a much better player. If you read my OP and my other posts in other threads, you know what I'm talking about. Yao is just a low post robot in JVG's system. Do you want to be treated as a robot? JVG didn't want to sign Vspan in the summer, and later, he must prove that he is right. He put Vspan, who is a real PG, in SG position and required him to shoot spot up 3. JVG didn't want to play Novak and didn't play him for a long time. Fans want to play Novak. JVG must prove that fans are wrong and he is right. Suddenly, he played Novak as starter against the powerhorse PHX. There are too many stories. I want to call him a liar, and I can tell it from his interviews. Anyway, you can call me a hater. But, there is nothing relate to personal.
Rafer is a good rebounding guard, and Bonzi outrebounded Rafer in nearly half the minutes, comparing Bonzi's rebounding with Rafer makes perfect sense. It shows Bonzi did an excellent rebounding job among guards. It also shows that Bonzi was in condition, not great condition, but in condition to play. Bonzi also shot a decent 41% and scored 8 points a game in just 21 minutes. When you don't have depth, then it reasons that some dude who has better scoring efficiency, rebounding effiency and shooting efficiency than your starting pg get more than zero minutes off the bench. It also stand to reason that such performance of Bonzi under inconsistent minutes would tend to improve if given consistent minutes. JVG didn't utilize Bonzi enough. First you say Bonzi made up injuries, now you back off by saying he didn't. Which way is it, flippy? An anonymous friend quoting Bonzi on Espn is your so called well documented facts? Man, you are either very gullible or just like to shoot your mouth off. Either way, your credibility is sinking at the magnitude of Titanic. Being afraid to compare guards with guards is lame, but I won't go on. I agree with your suggestion of non communication, it has been a waste of my time.
Yeah, he only helped Yao develop into the best center in the NBA. Check Yao's stats post-JVG. Hell, check our record. How should Yao be a better player? Is 25 and 10 not enough for you? Or do you prefer his stats this season? If Novak is such a great player, why was he a second round pick? Why isn't he really cracking the rotation right now? If he was NBA ready, why did he get sent to the D-League? Did you actually watch Novak play last year? He was terrible. In JVG's system especially, he should have been servicable...it played to his strengths...sitting on the 3 pt line waiting for an open shot when Yao or TMac get doubled. Instead he missed open shots, was a terrible defender and was clearly lost in what all of you JVG-Bashers call a simplistic offense. And FYI...check Boki's stats post-JVG. He averaged 13 minutes in Houston his last season here. The following season in New Orleans, he averaged 16 minutes, was TRADED to New Jersey and averaged 9 minutes. Now? Boki averages 10 points a game as a servicable backup. Also, if I recall correctly, he took us from a lottery team to a team that makes the playoffs. While I wouldn't call his tenure an absolute success, hence his being justifiably fired, I wouldn't ever call it a step back. Also, since I did watch EVERY game last year (thank you league pass), I noticed that in garbage time in the second half of the season, VSpan played with John Lucas in the backcourt and they traded off playing PG. The guy wasn't a good NBA player...he wasn't ready. I guess you and I are different...I would rather win games than develop mediocre talent so that we can get to the playoffs.
Thank you. One last thing, did JVG utilize Bonzi enough when HE QUIT ON THE TEAM?????? How DARE a coach bench a player who reports out of shape, has a bad attitude, fakes an injury and a HISTORY of being a cancer? The nerve... And comparing Bonzi's subpar numbers to arguably the worst starting PG in the NBA last season is hardly a decent benchmark. Wow, I can't believe a low post player had a better shooting percentage and better rebounding numbers than a terrible, undersized PG And reread the root canal...that is faking an injury.
Nachbar produced when he got consistent minutes, not a great player but a decent backup. That's good enough given his draft position. Nachbar could be sent to foreign leagues or NBDL to develop, and be ready to contribute to the team after a few seasons. The Rockets didn't get anything out of that pick used to draft Nachbar, since Nachbar was traded later for old worn out player that disappeared very soon. Coupling that with signing old players that don't stick long, the end result is NO accumulation of depth over the years, with NBA record of no bench points scored in a playoffs game as the crowning achievement of JVG era.
My point was that JVG played Nachbar as much (basically) as the next two coaches. It took THEM two more years to play him with any regularity. Obviously he wasn't ready. also, you can't just send a player to a foreign league once they have already played for your team, which Nachbar did under Rudy. And there was no NBDL back then. then blame the GM. He drafts players and signs free agents. As I stated 10 posts ago, Mark Jackson and Oakley were late season fill-ins. Usually, if you are a decent, under-the hill NBA player, you are already on a roster at that point. Ward was a bad signing. One player. Spoon was worth getting rid of Moochie's worthless contract and at least he had some productive stints at first, more than I could say for Moochie. Yeah, I guess I forgot about how well Rudy left our team. Since you blame coaches for rosters, let's look at what he left us with and the contracts that they signed. Kelvin Cato, Moochie Norris, Maurice Taylor, Glen Rice and Eddie Griffin. The young players we had were Steve and Cat (traded for TMac and a great trade), Tito Maddox, Jauquin Hawkins and Terrence Morris...none of whom are even in the NBA anymore and were out pretty quickly after our team. Why did we ever get rid of such young, great talent? EDIT: and I don't blame Rudy or coaches in general for their rosters. That is the fault of the GM. I love Rudy and the titles he helped us win.
If you think about the starting five of Adelman's Kings, Bibby, Christie, Stojakovic, Webber and Divac all declined considerably after being traded. You may argue that Webber, Divace and Christie's decline due to aging. But Bibby and Stojakovic regressed significantly after Adelman's era. It seems that RA's system made individual players play better as a team.
