Used to be that way, but not so much with the influx of new posters. Now just a few dissenting voices in the multitude of homer trades. The way I look at it is, you get rid of Moochie's contract. I did screw up though by sending the Junk Yard Dog to you. I should have sent a SF instead to fill a hole (Lamond Murray?). Getting rid of Mooch's 3mill contract doesn't offset the cap burden on the team, esp since the rox would be giving up Rice's expiring contract. Getting rid of Mooch's 3 mill contract doesn't offset the age disparity. Lamond Murray would make much more sense and be a good pickup, provided he's healthy this year. I still think you over-value your players. I might be putting too much value on Davis, but the simple fact is, he's a banger who could seriously help you guys, and a lot of teams. Could you imagine how physical your team could be with Ming and Davis in the middle? Remember, you have a coach that had the most boring offense in the history of the NBA while in NY. He had Ewing and Oakley. Yes, it would be an impressive lineup for a year or 2(which still wouldn't lead us deep into the playoffs), then AD breaks down and he's still signed on for near max money for 2 or 3 more years. AD is good for a contending team that has no cap concerns. The rocks aren't that team. Plus, Griffin doesn't exactly have a lot of trade value right now. then he wont be traded, it's that simple.
Supposedly AD has sold his house. Doesn't necessarily mean anything. Portland is saying that the purported 3-way with NJ and Toronto hasn't been discussed seriously in a week or so. I don't know. Sure, we could trade Cato/Mo/Mooch for AD/Mo-Pete/JYD or such. AD would have to provide backup minutes at center, though. Big ole maybe. We need a bruiser. I just would prefer, say, a younger player.
Unless AD interferes with the signing of another specific free agent, then short term solutions are absolutely fine for this team. The only reason that a team should not pursue the best possible option at any specific time regardless of the age of the player is if they are building their team core and don't want to miss out on a potential lottery pick. No one wants to have a middle of the road team that can neither make the playoffs or get a good draft pick to help them win in the future. The Rockets have their core established, and the signing of AD makes sense because it makes the team better. When AD finishes here, the team will have won more games because of him and it will therefore be more attractive to other free agents that we could sign.
You are aware that Davis shot .407% from the field last year aren't you? That's a little pricey for a guy who is making around the max. Davis is paid too much $$ and is almost done. It would be worthless for the Rockets to go after him unless he was the final piece to get us to the championship. He isn't. He could really help a team like Dallas out though.
AD would be a good fit on this team -- depending on just what and how much Rox had to give up. If, say -- Mo, Mooch, Cato fior AD and JYD? I'd do it in a blink!
I do think Nugget4's deal is in Toronto's favor but not nearly as much as you think. EG has no trade value (let's face it, if he's 24 instead of 20 people would have given up on him already) and Moochie has negative trade value. Also, if you think AD has a huge contract for his value then what about Glen Rice, the only thing between them in Rice's favor is that his expiring contract. Cat is the only somewhat significant player we're trading away. Personal note also, I would love to have JYD on this team. To make this trade fair I would substitute MoPete for Bradley, then I would do this trade in a second.
He shot 40.7% being the only scoring option on a crappy team. If anything he stepped up when Vince got injured, averaging more points AND boards then almost his entire career. With SF and Yao we don't need him to score, just need him to get 10 RPG which he does get quite routinely and does MUCH BETTER than any of our frontline players.
There's no way I give up Mobley for a 36 year old PF with a huge contract. I wouldn't mind having Davis, but not at the expense of a 20 ppg 2-guard in his mid-20s. Now if it's giving up Mo and someone else like Cato then do it. I disagree with Nugget4, Davis doesn't have that much value for Toronto to hold him up for ransom. His age, contract, and state of the Raptors team in need of help means they'll have to take less to get rid of his contract.
MFW, 1) Everything I read about that trade, said it was either EG or EG/Rice for SAR. I never heard Cat's name mentioned. Seeing as how that rumor was never confirmed in the 1st place, I am pretty skeptical of your version. No offense. 2) Even if your version was true, if we weren't willing to give up EG/Rice/Cat for SAR, then we sure as hell aren't going to give up Rice/Griffin/Cat for Davis and JWilliams. 3) AD was not the only scoring option on Torontos team last year. Lenard, Williams and Petersen are all considered better scoring options than Davis is. Davis' game is limited and always has been. 4) You have explained (or attempted to) Davis .40% shooting last year. How about explaining Davis' sub .440 shooting %s the 3 years before that?? Or explain how Davis' shooting % has declined almost every single season since his rookie year??? (perhaps age?? ) 5) Based on Davis' age and his career stats, at best, its reach to say that he would average 10 rpg for us. 6) Even if he does give us 10rpg, $12 mil per year for that is kind of steep. Rice/EG/Cat and $12 mil per year can get us alot more than Antonio Davis, that is for certain.
thats all well an fine, but if you want to get AD, you will have to give up one of you're core players, like cuttino, or griffen. now do you still think it's worth it ?.... dude i say if ya gonna give up griffen or even cuttino mobely, try to get something worthwhile. AD is'nt the answer.... my opinion i guess
1) I'm pretty sure it was EG/Rice/Mobley for SAR. 2) I make no attempts to justify EG/Rice/Mobley for AD/JYD is a fair trade. As I said, it is a trade that would benefit Toronto, just not as much as all of you make it out to be. One thing that AD/JYD give but SAR never will is toughness. 3) Alvin Williams, agreed; Voshon Lenard came off the bench which meant he got his pts when AD was off the floor, one might also argue against lesser competition. MoPete was never one of those guys the Raptors gave the ball to every night. He was inconsistent at best as in he will be on fire one night then completely disappear the next couple of games. So what happened when this happens? They go back to AD. 4) If you look at his career, his FG% actually declined every season except one. So this nullifies your point because his FG% was declining even through his prime. I don't doubt there is a certain age factor in there but if you actually look at his shots attempted, it basically increased every season. Because Toronto is such a pathetic team without Vince Carter he had to take more shots. Just a comparison: in Indy, his highest seasonal shots attempted was 641; in his 4 seasons in Toronto, he attempted 712, 866, 963 and 641 shots. The rule of thumb is the more shots you attempt generally the lower the FG%, hence point 3 above. Of course all that is moot, as I said in the last post, with Yao and SF we don't really need him to score. 5) I didn't say he would average 10 RPG I said can potentially get you 10 boards on any given night. Besides, even if he doesn't get 10 RPG he would still be the best rebounder on our team. We know MoT can't rebound if his life depends on it; EG is good for about 5-6, 3-4 if he's on pot; Cato is decent last season but there is no guarantee he would continue that trend this season, not to mention while he's boarding, he's giving up scoring options; SF is the only good rebounder on this team for his position, unfortunately he's a PG and I don't count on PG's to get boards; Yao we all agree he needs to improve his timing and techniques, not the mention we don't know what condition he'll show up in training camp in. All this means I have very little confidence in our rebounding department. AD would give us around 8-9 boards, more significantly, 2.5 offensive; JYD gives 9.2/3.3. Would I consider that significant? Definitely. Those two can get the offensive boards while Yao cleans up the defensive glass. 6) Agreed, he's expensive. In summary, I don't think Michael Bradley has any trade value, at least not yet. So as I said take out Bradley and put in MoPete, I'd do it in a second. Take out Rice and his expiring contract and put in MoT and it becomes a DUH trade (for Houston of course). I personally would consider any trade that sends Moochie out of town (no stupid reply like Moochie for Kobe please). As I said also, the only significant player we are giving away would be Cat, who is an above average to good player in this league that unfortunately doesn't fit into this team. So my 2 cents is that as of right now this trade favors the Raptors, but we can tweak that in our favor.
We had this thread before. This is just too dumb to even be discussed anymore. Did you ever have any influence on the Nuggets' personnel decisions...maybe that's why they have been doing so "well" the past few years...trades like the one you proposed for the Rockets are the trades that will kill a team for years. Actually, to be honest, Denver is looking much better now, with Carmelo Anthony and Nene Hilario and Andre Miller...nice core...for the first time in ages.
a. AD averaged 8.2 rbs in 35.7 mpg last year. EG averaged 6 in 24.7 or something like that. EG actually rebounds at a higher rate. neither would be what i call a guarantee to dominate the glass. same thing with SAR for all his supporters, he rebounds at a lower rate than griffin. b. cato wasn't decent last season at rebounding, he was excellent, second in rebound/48 minutes behind ben wallace. c. why do you have little confidence in our rebounding department? we were 3rd in rebounding percentage last year. take that for what it's worth, but we weren't bad at rebounding. losing posey will hurt a little as he did board well for a sf (but i'm glad he's gone), but yao should improve and nullify that. d. AD is too old, shoots the same as griffin w/o taking all the 3's EG does to have an excuse, makes assloads too much money and is too short term a solution to even consider losing core/semi-core parts for (i think i dangled some sort of grammar thing there). it may take that to get him (certainly not mobley and eg though) but i'm not willing to give it up for someone who's boarding doesn't live up to his reputation as a physical player that he made about 8 years ago and has seen fall off recently.
I'll remind you of 2 things I said: 1) I do think AD is old and somewhat overpaid 2) I said over and over again the deal as it stands is unfair to the Rox My point was the tweak it in our favor a)/b) we are going through the whole 48 mins thing again. To start, players get tired playing 48 mins, especially low post players (to EG of course it wouldn't make a diff). As a result their efficiency goes down. Not to mention that Cato got quite a few of his boards off the bench, against scrubs. Not to discredit what he did though he had a very good season rebounding wise, but there are other factors that can scew this number. Besides, there is no guarantee he can put up those numbers consistently. Not to mention I can find a rebounder and better scorer than Cato and pay him much less. If AD is overpriced, Cato is right up there too. c) SF is a great rebounder for his position/height; Yao will get 10 boards a game just based on his height alone (when he's not winded); JP got us 5.1, not great but significant. But then it gets pretty thin from there on. Yao is a below average rebounder at this point for players over 7'. He got winded quite a few games towards the end of the season and he should improve his timing and technique. I also mentioned we don't know what shape he'll show up to camp in; MoT and rebounding should even be mentioned in the same sentence; EG can be decent one night then completely disappear the next, not to mention I think pot is killing his brain cells faster than it should; Cato is good, but see above, there is no guarantee he'll put up those numbers again. My point here is I don't know which Cato will show up. In my opinion, he knew he was going to lose his starting job to Yao so he stepped up a notch. Well that doesn't sit well with me. If a player only tries hard when it's time to get paid or it's time to save his job, that can't be good for the team. d) AD is old but that's the reason we're even having this discussion. If he's like 28 this deal would be done already. You also tend to think EG shoots a low percentage because he always shoots from the outside. While that is half true, the other half is, let's face it, he's a lousy shooter. I know AD certainly wouldn't airball a wide open shot from 2 feet (to start he'll be trying to dunk). I should also said that this deal is not EG/Cat/Rice/Moochie for AD. If that's the case there is no way I would even consider it. It's the above for AD/JYD and if I get my way, MoPete. The Davis issue we already beat to death, but I would love to have JYD on this team. I got to watch many Raptors' games last season (oh about 36) and I loved the energy Jerome Williams brought off the bench. He plays harder than any of our players ever will and when they lose or he misses a shot, judging by his facial expression, you know it hurts him. This is the type of player we need on our team, not some pot smoking stringbean that can't shoot and doesn't know his position. As for Cat, I already mentioned that he doesn't seem to fit in the confines of this team, MoPete is a much better player playing without the ball. He should take up some of Cat's production and under JVG, hopefully develop some consistency. Last but not the least, a big a reason as any I have mentioned above: MOOOOOOOOOCCCCCHHHHHIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEE.
We have a Blazer fan telling us its a bad trade and we still have Rockets fans arguing for it? AD's production to price ratio makes Moochie's contract look like we got a Corvette for the price of a Kia.
You are on crack. 30 in the NBA is a seasoned vet. The guy is closer to 40 than 30. They would be happy to get anything that will be on the roster for a couple of years.
M.Taylor C.Mobely FOR A.Davis M.Peterson/L.Murray As far as basketball-wise alone, I would seriously consider this deal. Yes AD is old, yes his FG% is low. But, he is a character guy who isn't afraid to mix it up down low and is exactly the type of vocal leader this very young and inexperienced team needs as it transforms from a pretender to a contender. As for salary-cap ramifications, it might not be the best trade, heck I'm not even sure if the above trade would be approved. But I still don't see why all the passionate angst against Davis. Watching him over the last 3-4 years here in Toronto, I honestly haven't noticed any wearing down due to age. Asides for G.Rice and possibly A.Griffin now no one on this team has experienced the play-off wars (Mobes and Cato don't really count). Antonio Davis is a role player, and as such he is not being used properly in Toronto as a 2nd and sometimes (when Vince is injured) 1st option. If you look back to the end of the '01-'02 season when Carter was out, Davis helped lead a hapless team into the play-offs that gave the Pistons a scare in a 5-gamer. With the Rocks, Davis would not be asked to score, he would complement Yao well and help mentor EG. He'd still give us 2-3 good years and if his toughness has any influence on our younger guys, his legacy (maybe too dramatic a word) would stay on. Why is anyone over 30 always looked at as a virus here? Azim da Dream
