My attempt at levity concerning frats was poorly delivered. If what you say is true, then those involved from the top down should be punished. And, I would love it if Rumsfeld got the axe too. DD
That's not the rally cry,...How bout we stop with Nazi references altogether? (This exempts those who put a foot down to the idiotic comparison)...
DD: If Rumsfeld stays, it's because Bush refused his resignation. You can almost be sure it was offered. One interesting theory is that the Bush team has determined a confirmation process for a new Sec. of Defense might be even more damaging than retaining Rumsfeld, because of all of the questions that would be asked in light of the mistakes of the last few years. The frat thing wasn't just poorly delivered -- it's particularly offensive as Rush Limbaugh and several of the apparently criminally insane posters who've defended the behavior have already used it to downplay the soldiers' offenses.
p.s. It is. It's not a matter of speculation. The stuff I posted as "what we know for certain," we know for certain. Nobody is disputing any of it. And the people at the very top have assured us there is worse stuff to come.
ooh, looks like I struck a nerve. so I guess by this you admit that you were wrong before? I guess that's an honorable way of admitting error, "go to hell you moron, so what if you're right!" ...way to save face, lol. Now please regale me with more stories about the haters on the left, and make sure they have a lot of swearing, frothing, and exclamation points, s'il te plait...
Some would say the pictures that have surfaced is more indicative of "mistreatment", than outright "torture"...So far, (unless I haven't seen some pics) I would rate all of them more as "mistreatment"... A few of the pics gets close, but the confirmed pics seem more to show examples of mistreatment rather than torture...Am I saying this was proof torture didn't exist? No....Can we rely on inmates to tell the truth? No...There are a lot of unknown variables here... It's important to discuss...What were the rules?...Honestly, I can partially understand the no clothes issue (for example, to make clear of hidden weapons)...but, perhaps give them some underwear to walk around in...If they don't want it, its then their problem...If detained, leave them alone (unless hard interrogation is crucial towards saving a life)...I absolutely don't mind "making" someone talk in War to save lives or information at the highest priority...but I disagree with "making" everyone "talk" for no urgent reason...If they get unruly, or throw bodily waste...bind them up, and let them sit in it if they wish... There was a breakdown in the wishes and command...I blame people at the command level...much moreso than the soldiers...But I have to be honest about my feelings on the pics I've seen, and that seems to be more clearly blatant mistreatment...
If that was the worst of what happened, it wouldn't be so bad. It might be eye opening, and shocking, but not so serious. I agree that most of the pictures would fall under mistreatment and not torture. But the sad thing is we have the reports. They aren't just reports from prisoners, they are reports of U.S. army generals. They do talk of outright torture, and there supposedly more pictures and videos that show worse.
"Beyond abuse of prisoners, there are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman... "There are many more photographs and indeed some videos. Congress and the American people and the rest of the world need to know this." --Rummy
Again, is this how we want American POWs treated? If not, then what happened was wrong. You can't have it both ways. By the way, I figured a Christian or two would have mentioned "Do onto others" as a reason not to assrape shackled prisoners with broomsticks.
TJ, how in the hell does stacking naked men make them talk about future terrorist attacks? or does the pose of them standing beneath one of their prisonmates masturbating do that? or is it the presence of the dyke lady who was pointing at them? which one of these pathetic ways helps our american army in any way?
For all of you saying that it's not THAT bad ... if the roles in the pictures were reversed, what would your reaction be? What if it were Iraqi soldiers doing this stuff to American captives? Would you be fine with that and just discard it as "it's war it happens, no biggie ... it's just some humiliation" The way some of you are acting so non-chalant about it is absolutely amazing. Even if what is shown in the pictures was the extent of things, it would still be unacceptable.
don't you get it? the two way street thing is just a fabrication of the LIBEREBERBEALS. We are only good people so only good can be done by us, they are bad people so only bad can be done by them. if something bad happens to them, they deserve it, if we do something bad, then the lLIBEBNEBErals made it up. stop being unamerican. war is hell, we can do whatever we want. sure is easy to say that when we are the ones with the bigger guns. some interrogation technique, stick a broomstick in my ass and i'll admit to killing kennedy.
The worst thing about all of this is that is should have been expected. Some of you may be familiar with the Zimbardo/Stanford Prison experiment from the 70s, where a mock prison got out of control in 6 days and had to be shut down. The mock guards (who were just plain college students) in that experience actually began to abuse the mock prisoners (who were also just plain college students). When you look at that study, and then factor in the stresses that soldiers face (homesickness, hard work, the threat of injury and death), the inevitability of what happened in Iraq is obvious. I can't imagine whose dumb idea it was to allow inexperienced reservists to run a prison, but it was criminal IMHO. As much as we all believe in the concept of free will, certain environments are conduits for sadistic behavior. A prison is one such environment - over and over again, you see that it breeds violence in both the prisoners and the guards. It's an ugly fact of life for which we have yet to resolve - after all, you can't just stop imprisoning people (especially when they actually pose a danger). But you also don't turn a blind eye - the soldiers involved must be disciplined and even punished severely if the specific circumstances merit it. However, the real "bad guys" were the ones who made such a situation possible by assigning prison duty to inexperienced soldiers.
It isn't being said but the amount of ignorance, apathy and hate about treating people, no matter sinner or saint, like this and the fact that some of you would go out of your way to excuse it is really sickening. Do you really believe that this is going to save lives or improve an already f***ed up region like the middle east? have some of you really lost your ability to know what is right and what is wrong? you f***ers are sad.
Actually, it has been documented that several detainees have died under suspicious circumstances. I see that your information processing skills are still "working" as well as usual. First off, there is no data whatsoever that shows WHAT these men were arrested for and since there have been sweeps where American soldiers have just picked people up off the street, it is likely that at least some of those in these pictures were not "dropping mortar rounds on you and blowing up cars." Second, we signed the Geneva Convention, didn't we? Is that just ANOTHER "irrelevant" document?
From the Riverbend blog: Friday, May 07, 2004 Just Go... People are seething with anger- the pictures of Abu Ghraib and the Brits in Basrah are everywhere. Every newspaper you pick up in Baghdad has pictures of some American or British atrocity or another. It's like a nightmare that has come to life. Everyone knew this was happening in Abu Ghraib and other places… seeing the pictures simply made it all more real and tangible somehow. American and British politicians have the audacity to come on television with words like, "True the people in Abu Ghraib are criminals, but…" Everyone here in Iraq knows that there are thousands of innocent people detained. Some were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, while others were detained 'under suspicion'. In the New Iraq, it's "guilty until proven innocent by some miracle of God". People are so angry. There’s no way to explain the reactions- even pro-occupation Iraqis find themselves silenced by this latest horror. I can’t explain how people feel- or even how I personally feel. Somehow, pictures of dead Iraqis are easier to bear than this grotesque show of American military technique. People would rather be dead than sexually abused and degraded by the animals running Abu Ghraib prison. There was a time when people here felt sorry for the troops. No matter what one's attitude was towards the occupation, there were moments of pity towards the troops, regardless of their nationality. We would see them suffering the Iraqi sun, obviously wishing they were somewhere else and somehow, that vulnerability made them seem less monstrous and more human. That time has passed. People look at troops now and see the pictures of Abu Ghraib… and we burn with shame and anger and frustration at not being able to do something. Now that the world knows that the torture has been going on since the very beginning, do people finally understand what happened in Falloojeh? I'm avoiding the internet because it feels like the pictures are somehow available on every site I visit. I'm torn between wishing they weren't there and feeling, somehow, that it's important that the whole world sees them. The thing, I guess, that bothers me most is that the children can see it all. How do you explain the face of the American soldier, leering over the faceless, naked bodies to a child? How do you explain the sick, twisted minds? How do you explain what is happening to a seven-year-old? There have been demonstrations in Baghdad and other places. There was a large demonstration outside of the Abu Ghraib prison itself. The families of some of the inmates of the prison were out there protesting the detentions and the atrocities… faces streaked with tears of rage and brows furrowed with anxiety. Each and every one of those people was wondering what their loved ones had suffered inside the walls of the hell that makes Guantanamo look like a health spa. And through all this, Bush gives his repulsive speeches. He makes an appearance on Arabic tv channels looking sheepish and attempting to look sincere, babbling on about how this 'incident' wasn't representative of the American people or even the army, regardless of the fact that it's been going on for so long. He asks Iraqis to not let these pictures reflect on their attitude towards the American people… and yet when the bodies were dragged through the streets of Falloojeh, the American troops took it upon themselves to punish the whole city. He's claiming it's a "stain on our country's honor"... I think not. The stain on your country's honor, Bush dear, was the one on the infamous blue dress that made headlines while Clinton was in the White House... this isn't a 'stain' this is a catastrophe. Your credibility was gone the moment you stepped into Iraq and couldn't find the WMD... your reputation never existed. So are the atrocities being committed in Abu Ghraib really not characteristic of the American army? What about the atrocities committed by Americans in Guantanamo? And Afghanistan? I won't bother bringing up the sordid past, let's just focus on the present. It seems that torture and humiliation are common techniques used in countries blessed with the American presence. The most pathetic excuse I heard so far was that the American troops weren't taught the fundamentals of human rights mentioned in the Geneva Convention… Right- morals, values and compassion have to be taught. All I can think about is the universal outrage when the former government showed pictures of American POWs on television, looking frightened and unsure about their fate. I remember the outcries from American citizens, claiming that Iraqis were animals for showing 'America's finest' fully clothed and unharmed. So what does this make Americans now? We heard about it all… we heard stories since the very beginning of the occupation about prisoners being made to sit for several hours on their knees… being deprived of sleep for days at a time by being splashed with cold water or kicked or slapped… about the infamous 'red rooms' where prisoners are kept for prolonged periods of time… about the rape, the degradations, the emotional and physical torture… and there were moments when I actually wanted to believe that what we heard was exaggerated. I realize now that it was only a small fragment of the truth. There is nothing that is going to make this 'better'. Nothing. Through all of this, where is the Governing Council? Under what rock are the Puppets hiding? Why is no one condemning this? What does Bremer have to say for himself and for the Americans? Why this unbearable silence? I don't understand the 'shock' Americans claim to feel at the lurid pictures. You've seen the troops break down doors and terrify women and children… curse, scream, push, pull and throw people to the ground with a boot over their head. You've seen troops shoot civilians in cold blood. You've seen them bomb cities and towns. You've seen them burn cars and humans using tanks and helicopters. Is this latest debacle so very shocking or appalling? The number of killings in the south has also risen. The Americans and British are saying that they are 'insurgents' and people who are a part of Al-Sadir's militia, but people from Najaf are claiming that innocent civilians are being killed on a daily basis. Today the troops entered Najaf and there was fighting in the streets. This is going to cause a commotion because Najaf is considered a holy city and is especially valuable to Shi'a all over the world. The current situation in the south makes one wonder who, now, is going to implement a no-fly zone over areas like Falloojeh and Najaf to 'protect' the people this time around? I sometimes get emails asking me to propose solutions or make suggestions. Fine. Today's lesson: don't rape, don't torture, don't kill and get out while you can- while it still looks like you have a choice... Chaos? Civil war? Bloodshed? We’ll take our chances- just take your Puppets, your tanks, your smart weapons, your dumb politicians, your lies, your empty promises, your rapists, your sadistic torturers and go. http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_05_01_riverbendblog_archive.html#108392335918002921
