Don't worry about it, FB. You shouldn't have to refrain from quoting someone for my benefit. For myself, I can't believe you guys are still trying to have meaningful conversations with the Incredible Hulk of the D&D, but to each his Dulcinea.
Bottom line: because they did it. But I think the higher-ups who ordered it should face much stiffer punishment. And the specifics should be considered on a case-by-case basis. But they clearly should have known this was wrong, as some junior level soldiers DID recognize. This is also an effective way to avoid such a disgrace in the future.
Agreed, Cohen. I've actually been temporarily taken in by some of the appeals from family members (like L. England's). They were in a terrible situation, to be sure, being untrained and unprepared and all. But just look at the photos. Lynndie England was having a good old time. I don't think she should bear ultimate responsibility -- I think the higher ups should -- but she definitely shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun. And she probably shouldn't be walking around in polite society with the people who rightly denounce her crimes.
It is the fact I took those classes that I believe to the opposite of the leftist dogma in this country. This dogma includes: That the evil rich are not paying their fair share of taxes. That govt. regulation and expansion actually spurs the economy. That society is safer with only cops and criminals with guns. That America is an evil, selfish nation bent on environmental plunder with our awful SUV's, "urban sprawl" and the like. That there is ultimately an excuse (poverty, etc) that keeps people from reaching their dreams and becoming something more than dependent on the tax dollars stolen from my hard work. That there always is an mitigating circumstance in every crime. That just understanding why terrorists hate us will make them like us. We don't need to take out folks before they become a threat. Just let them build the WMD because we have it to. That "diversity" and not the classic ideals of hard work and sacrifice make us great. That America is no better than any country and it was founded on subjugating the native peoples and trampling on their land. That anything that offends their precious sensibilities is wrong. Read some of the D & D posts from the esteemed and dominate left and that is the gist of your worldview. But no longer will I hold it against any of you. It's just with the national security stuff, I get....touchy. When you involve my wife and kids and the future of this country, I get serious. As for Iraq, I haven't talked about how I really feel about our situation there. I think that we are doing far better than the hyped media coverage would indicate, but I think that this scandal was a serious, serious setback. I think there could have been some better planning with the operation, but when I think of Saddam with nukes, the war we have now is the lesser of two evils. It pains me that 700+ folks have died over there, but I think we were going to have to do it sometime. BJ, lemme explain my beef with you. You clearly deserved some of my more venomous barbs. You have basically looked your nose down at me like I'm some kind of hayseed hick from Mayberry from Day one. You have directed some pretty nasty things in my direction as well, so don't act as if I'm totally at fault here. I'm willing to apologize for being a total b*stard if you're willing to apologize for some of the things you have said in the past. After that, I will cease my sometimes venonous tirades directed at you and while we won't be friends, can't we find some common ground? Besides, we like the same bar in ATL, do we not? If only you were in ATL, we could settle this over beers, my treat.
bama: Went ahead and read your last one as I had a crazy feeling I might be mentioned there. I'm willing to apologize for anything I said about you personally regardless of whether you're willing to do the same. I don't remember calling you a hayseed, but if I did I apologize for that. I have to say though, I really don't like your debating style. I find it universally dismissive and liberally flavored with scat-based insults and I won't apologize for feeling that way. Based on the posts I read from you in the Hangout and elsewhere before I put you on ignore, I'm guessing we'd get along fine if politics never came up. And I'd be happy to have beers with you. Next time I'm in ATL I'll let you know. Might have to be at Manuel's or something though. I hear the Clairmont's closing. Before we make peace though, you ought to know I'm not about to back off this stuff about the torture, the war or any of my other deeply held beliefs, especially with regard to what this country stands for. That's me being a patriot in the best way I know how and I'm not compromising it to make nice. As for the rest, no hard feelings.
Understood. Apology accepted. Clairmont's closing!? I can't believe that, but it is a seedy, seedy dive. I'm a family man, so I really don't get to the bars in the ATL as I once did. Kids tend to do that to you. I understand and accept that you feel that we should be better than that when it comes to the treatment of prisoners. And one other thing, admittedly, I do say things for effect. Honestly. If I've been a total dick sometimes, I apologize to you all and the moderators. Sam, sometimes you really chap my hide, but you're all right. Even if we don't agree.
Alright bama, you're off ignore til tomorrow at least. I don't know if you want people to take you seriously or not, but being a dick generally doesn't help. Let's start fresh, alright? When I was in Atlanta last (in January) I heard the building the Clairmont was in was being sold. Glad I got to go before it closes. The Local (across the street from the Clairmont) is a pretty good bar I think. Also Manuel's and one bar in Decatur I can't remember the name of. Decatur's the place to drink now anyway, since they started closing ATL bars at 2:30. But let's not derail with niceties when there are atrocities to discuss. Plenty of time for the friendly stuff in that sissy hangout.
Good enough, Cohen, but don't you have a history of being taken in by lowered expectations? Sorry bama, couldn't help it. I'm a stinker that way.
Really not sure what you mean about my history there BJ, but I found the introspection refreshing and a positive. I said nothing about my future expectations; these 2 posts were good.
Just a lame joke about voting Bush last time around, Cohen. I thought bama's last couple posts were pretty alright too.
The world is coming to an end. Lunatic fringe liberals and reactionary conservatives are embracing each other. What's next, Trader_Jorge and MacBeth holding hands?
More?? This was on the drudgereport this morning: Pentagon possesses three disks of photos, one of which includes a photo of soldiers sodomizing prisoners with glow sticks... Many of the photos are redundant, and some have little to do with Iraqi detainees but show sex between U.S. soldiers... Pentagon officials prevailed at least temporarily in their insistence that the administration not immediately release the images, which include the forced masturbation of a detainee...
Supposedly the broad with the leash and the tall guy with the glasses in all the pictures videoed themselvces having consensual sex.
I hope that hideous looking "woman" who was holding the leash in one picture and pointing at prisoner's gentalia in another picture is not one of the ones videotaped having consensual sex. Midget p*rn doesn't turn me on at all, especially if the midget is an ugly-ass trailer park midget that looks like she belongs on an episode of "Cops".
