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About that old clippers/rockets 2002 trade

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by DoDo, May 5, 2004.

  1. DoDo

    DoDo Member

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    Maybe this will help some people out. The trade was the 1st plus Rice for Odom Maggette and 8th. Basically a team of Cat Francis Odom Maggette Stoudamire Griffin would have been the core. By the way the clippers would have picked Jay Williams not Yao Ming. Bulls would be the ones with Ming right now, trying to get him and Curry minutes.

    Francis/Moochie
    Cat/Maggette
    Odom/Posey
    Stoudamire/Griffin/Taylor
    Cato/Collier

    Is this better than what we have now?


    http://clippers.realgm.com/
    John Porter
    3rd June, 2002 10:48 PM


    Do The Math

    Why do the Clippers want Jay Williams so much? The answer is both a statement and a puzzle to be worked out.

    Do the Math.

    When I first heard about the Odom/Maggette/#8 for Rice/#1, I was dead against it. But the more I thought about it, I could see how it allows the Clippers to keep a lot of their players. The contracts don’t all come up at the same time, and the dollar amount involved let us keep the team together. And that’s how teams are built-keeping key ingredients together.

    What makes Jay Williams more valuable than Andre Miller or Baron Davis…more valuable than any of the top or near top PGs is his price. That, combined with the fact that the Clippers have six good to great players (Kandi, Brand, Odom, Maggette, Q and Miles) that need to be resigned within the next two years makes his value even greater to the Clippers than any other team. There are rumors that the Clippers would trade Odom, Maggette and #8 to Houston for the #1 pick and Glen Rice(!). It seems like too much to give up get Jay Williams. Actually, it is too much to give up to get Jay Williams in tersm of talent. So why would the Clippers do it?

    Do the Math.

    It’s not just a question of getting the player you want, it’s being able to keep the players you have. It’s cap economics. This trade allows the Clippers to have it.

    When I first heard about the Odom/Maggette/#8 for Rice/#1, I was dead set against it. But the more I thought about it, I could see how it allows the Clippers to keep a lot of their players. The contracts don’t all come up at the same time, and the dollar amount involved let us keep the team together. And that’s how teams are built-keeping key ingredients together.

    So here’s what happens. Kandi and Brand resign this year for a combined $19 million dollars (a little over $11 million for Brand, a little under $8 million for Kandi). The Clippers resign Pike and draft Amare Stoudamire at #12. Jaric comes over. That means the Clippers payroll (assuming a cap of $45 million) is:

    Brand $11,250,000 (6 year/$84.4 million contract)
    Rice $9,200,000
    Kandi $7,750,000 (6 year/$57.8 million contract)
    Williams $3,828,240
    Miles $3,267,960
    Piatkowski $2,750,000 (3 year/$9 million contract)
    Rooks $2,640,000
    Dooling $1,769,760
    Stoudamire $1,514,640
    Richardson $1,174,080
    Boykins $700,000
    Jamison $650,000
    Jaric $349,458 (2 year minimum contract)
    1 minimum level player

    Our payroll is $46 million…almost exactly where the cap is supposed to be. Both Elgin and Andy Roeser have said the Clippers will be at or over the cap next year. Okay. We’re there. Some people have said that Jaric will ask for more…it’s not totally clear if he can ask for more (no second round pick has received anything other than the minimum since the new CBA went into effect). Even if he wants and gets more, it won’t be more than 1.2 million more. That would be paying as a low to mid-level lottery pick. Our lineup, with minutes played, is:

    C-Kandi (2500), Brand (400), Rooks (800), Stoudamire (300)
    PF-Brand (2400), Miles (1000), Stoudamire (600)
    SF-Miles (1500), Rice (1700), Q (400), Jaric (400)
    SG-Q (2000), Pike (1300), Dooling (400), Jaric (300)
    PG-Williams (2400), Dooling (1000), Jaric (300), Boykins (300)

    On to 2003. Rooks is gone. Good influence, but with Kandi and Brand signed long term, and Stoudamire as an improving project, he’ll go. Boykins and Jamison are gone too. (Too bad about Earl…someone will pick him up…maybe even us.) Let’s say Q has progressed even further…he’s taken over the starting job and is giving us 15 or 16 points a game. He deserves a deal starting at $5 million a year. Give it to him. Miles and Rice split time and starts at SF last year, but we tell miles what he knows; you’ll be starting this year and it’s the last year of Rice’s contract. We’re picking up your fourth year option because we’ll have $$ after this season. The Clippers make the playoffs and give their pick to Orlando, but they do sign a free agent…someone like Cherokee Parks or Tony Massenburg, who can back up at PF/C. Whichever one we get signs for $1 million per year (although only $560,000 counts against the cap…don’t ask). Payroll and players for 2003/4 season:

    Brand $12,100,000
    Rice $9,600,000
    Kandi $8,500,000
    Richardson $5,000,000 (6 year/$37.5 million contract)
    Williams $4,147,560
    Miles $4,130,701
    Piatkowski $3,000,000
    Dooling $2,256,444
    Stoudamire $1,628,760
    Massenburg/Parks $1,000,000 ($560,000 against the cap)
    Jaric $562,679
    2 minimum level players

    Payroll is…wow. $52 million. We’re definitely over the cap, although not by much The new TV contract is backloaded, so the cap won’t rise much in 2002-3, but should rise 7-10% a year (at least) after that. Let’s say the cap is $48.5 million in 2003-4. We’re over, but nowhere neat the luxury tax. We’re keeping our core players together. We made the playoff last year. We’re in good shape. Lineup and minutes are:

    C-Kandi (2600), Stoudamire (500), Massenburg/Parks (500), Brand (400)
    PF-Brand (2350), Stoudamire (800), Miles (500), Massenburg/Parks (350)
    SF-Miles (2100), Rice (1300), Jaric (400), Q (200)
    SG-Q (2300), Pike (1200), Jaric (300), Dooling (200)
    PG-Williams (2500), Dooling (1000), Jaric (500)

    Here’s the clincher…It’s the Summer of 2004. The Clippers lost in the conference semis in 6 games last year. They’re still young with huge promise. And here is where the math and trade pay off. They can keep everybody.

    Time to repay Darius Miles, who is now a 17 point, 7 rebound player at SF. He’s got a J, and though he’s not an elite SF, he’s in the top 8 or 9 in the league. Start him at $8 million dollars. A max deal would be about $12.5 million, so he’s a level below that.

    Dooling…hypothetically speaking, he’s out. Jaric can play point, Williams is a fixture. We’ve got the #22 pick in the draft next year to draft a #3 PG if we choose to. And Jaric is a player now, and we offer him a deal starting at $5 million a year. It’s about the exception amount, and he signs for it. If he doesn’t, we keep Dooling and offer him a little bit less-he doesn’t play as many positions as well as Jaric does.

    We end up drafting a SF at #22, and use one of our minimum level player contracts for that #3 PG. Massenburg/Parks is still around. The Clippers of 2004-5 look like this:

    Brand $13,750,000
    Kandi $9,250,000
    Miles $8,000,000 (6 year/$60 million contract)
    Richardson $5,500,000
    Jaric $5,000,000 (4 year/$23 million contract)
    Williams $4,436,880
    Piatkowski $3,250,000
    Stoudamire $1,743,000
    #22 pick $1,019,400
    Massenburg/Parks $1,000,000 ($560,000 against the cap)
    3 minimum level players

    Our payroll is…hey, it’s only up slightly, to about $53.5 million. And the cap has gone up in the league, so it’s around $52 million too. We’ve kept a great core of players together for years. Brand, Kandi, Miles, Q and Jaric are signed long term. We would need to resign Williams and/or Stoudamire in the next year…but Pike and Massenburg/Parks come off the books. We could keep at least one, maybe both if we were willing to go over the cap.

    So how about a team with Jay Williams, Quentin Richardson, Darius Miles, Elton Brand and Michael Olowokandi-intact for the next three years. With Amare Stoudamire, Eric Piatkowski and Marco Jaric coming off the bench during that entire period? It’s easy. We pull this trade, and it’s done.

    Do the Math!
     
  2. yipengzhao

    yipengzhao Contributing Member

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    thanks for the clarification.

    sure that looks good.

    but... that is the best best best case scenario.

    a) Amare was under the radar, remember? with that kind of shake up at the top, the rockets might have gotten duanny wagner, skita, or wilcox (the actual number 8).

    b) Odom had drug and injury issues and left via free agency. who knows if the Rockets would still have him.
     
  3. gucci888

    gucci888 Contributing Member

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    I hate the offseason.

    Clutch- any chance of a countdown of how long until tip-off?

    Kinda like on Nbadraft.net
     
  4. yaopao

    yaopao Contributing Member

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    Would we really have drafted Stoudamere even though we drafted EG the year before?
     
  5. gucci888

    gucci888 Contributing Member

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    If Yao wasn't in the draft last year, the Rockets said they would have drafted Amare #1.
     
  6. lanqiu1

    lanqiu1 Contributing Member

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    If Rockets offer Yao plus a big contract plus trade exception for Brand and Maggette, Clippers will do it.

    Rockets will end up with SF3, Brand Maggette all collecting maximum salary.
     
  7. KaiSeR SoZe

    KaiSeR SoZe Contributing Member

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    where did you get that? I doubt the Rockets would have drafted Amare #1
     
  8. KaiSeR SoZe

    KaiSeR SoZe Contributing Member

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    I'd rather keep Yao
     
  9. lost_elephant

    lost_elephant Contributing Member

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    i share your sentiments. i never heard anything of the sort. if anything at the 4, they wouldve taken wilcox and we wouldve had how many terps/md folk on our team last year :eek:
     
  10. Hmm

    Hmm Member

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    I can only imagine the showboating and ego that would've exloded out of Francis and Cat, with the influences of Odom and Amare on this team. *shakes my head* that would've been the worst way this team could've headed. Would've been like the first two seasons of Steve and Cat 10 fold, only for every single season they ever played. Rudy would've been overruned, JVG would've looked at the line up afterwards and said "No thanks." Larry brown would've said "Nuh uh, already been through that with Iverson, infact hell no".

    With that team, no way does Francis ever mature, as alittle as he did this post season. And no way does Cat even play a bit of defense with that team's type of influence, let alone mature to the point he did this season where he understands his role more.
    And no way does Odom improve on his play as he has done, with the two "stars" of the Rockets leading in such a way.
    Would've been a tiring and immensly stupifying, annoying "clique o punks" for years if kept together.
    Where the goal for each game, would be, who can set up who with the flashier dunk, flashier pass, basically who can get more highlights.
    The immaturity of that team, would've driven me away till it's demise.

    *takes deep breath*
    thank god it never happened.
    :)

    *embraces current rocket team*
     
  11. gucci888

    gucci888 Contributing Member

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    I read it after we drafted Yao. Amare came in for a workout and the Rockets were really, really, impressed.
     
  12. Hmm

    Hmm Member

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    Yep, another player that they were really really impressed with was Dan Langhi.
     
  13. Uprising

    Uprising Contributing Member

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    Speaking of the Old Rockets, just now on TNT Clyde Drexler just gave LOTS of love to Hakeem. He said that when he left Portland to play in Houston he didn't have to play tough defense anymore. He said that now he would just let his man beat him to the rim and he would wait at the FT line for the ball to come back (The Dream's blocks), and then Charles chimed in that he waited at the opponents FT line. :D

    Man, the Dream was so good.
     
  14. KaiSeR SoZe

    KaiSeR SoZe Contributing Member

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    Damn I always miss ROckets props..i wish people would record TNT halftime shows..they are funny
     
  15. mrgoubople1

    mrgoubople1 Member

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    No really, the whole drafting amare thing was true they said that he and caron were 2 and 2a after yao, we probably would have taken caron b/c we didnt have a sf
     
  16. snowmt01

    snowmt01 Contributing Member

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    And Odom would leave for Miami because Rox couldn't match
    the salary.

     
  17. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

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    It was well known that we were really impressed with Amare and probably would have drafted him if we didn't get an agreement with the CBA. Amare got injured before the draft so the only teams he had a full workout with were the rocks and the suns. Think about it, we worked out Amare instead of Wilcox for a reason.
     
  18. kubli9

    kubli9 Contributing Member
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    I definitely remember this, Amare was brought in for workouts with Drew Gooden. IIRC, Amare dominated Gooden in their one on one workouts, leaving the Rockets very high on Amare.
     
  19. Alimoe84

    Alimoe84 Member

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    I hate these damn "What If" posts. Some fans are never satisfied. No one thought Amare was going to be so good so fast. Besides, knowing the Rockets, they probably wouldnt have drafted him. Trying trying to get That starting 5 would never work. Not enough basketballs in the world for them!! Quit dwelling on things of the past. Especially things that never even happened.
     

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