I think most of the people who consider themselves or want to be pro-life are even pro-choice when it comes down to it. I, for one, am not going to force a woman to give birth to a child they don't want to have. I just wish, in many circumstances, it wasn't the choice that they would make. I would rather, in most cases, that they choose life. We all know every abortion is different. In my particular case, the girl I dated when I was 19 became pregnant after we had been together about a year. It was my first relationship where intercourse was involved. She didn't didn't want to even consider having the child. We were "too young", "what would our parents and friends say". she wanted to finish school, she was afraid we didn't have enough money. Her parents were wealthy. I suggested we move to her home state and I could work and finish school. No, wouldn't consider it. I didn't fight her- even drove her to the clinic. 3 months later she's wondering why I don't want to have sex with her . By the way she was, supposedly, on the pill when she got pregnant. Dimsie, I think 90% of the people who are pro-life, are like me. They don't want to force a woman to have an abortion, but they wish that the choice wasn't made so often. I don't know the figures, but I would say many abortions are had by girls between 15 and 22 years old. They are scared, confused. Scared what their parents will say, scared they won't have enough money, scared of giving birth, scared of the responsibility. Most pro-life people are just upset that our society and culture has come to this. So much promoting of sexual promiscuity and casual sex and such little acceptance of young pregnancies and young couples. Abortion wasn't very common 50 years ago in our society. Abortion wasn't commonly practiced in ANY culture. It's just a shame, that's all, and we grieve for the unborn children, grieve for the young girls and women and hope for a change in our world. I was just upset by your categorization of people. I don't know anyone who thinks of single mothers as evil or undeserving of some kind of wellfare and help. Praise the single moms. Praise the good Dads. On another note, I just don't think it's a debate on "when" a baby becomes a baby. The egg gets fertilized and the baby starts to grow. Fast. After about 2 months, the baby is much larger than a mouse. That is life. If you eat chicken eggs, you don't eat it after it's been fertilized and growing for 2 1/2 months. It would be a big chick by then, maybe close to the size of a human fetus the same age. The egg gets fertilized, life starts to grow. In mammals it's called pregnancy. I have since met a wonderful girl, married her, and have two beautiful children. Creation is an amazing thing. My 2nd daughter is now 4 months old and can already crawl and play the piano. She laughs, smiles, loves baths and birds (and birdbaths)and understands just about everything I say. Awesome.
I'm not sure what you think 'very common' is, but many thousands of American women had abortions fifty years ago, and some of those thousands of American women died as a result of abortion being illegal and unsafe. That's documented. And probably under-reported. Dunno about the poultry metaphor - I ate chicken yesterday. It's customary to wait until they hatch before we eat them. Eggshell can get a bit gritty in the teeth.
No metaphor. Just an explanation. Life begins when the egg is fertilized. The baby starts to grow. Fast. It's called pregnancy in mammals. The gestation period for humans is nine months. Most babies are aborted at 2 or 2 1/2 months. They are alive. After they are aborted, they are dead. When the chicken egg is fertilized, the chick starts to grow.
Alright, Dimsie. If that's all you have to say about that post of mine, then it's sad. You make fun of Giddyup for grieving about abortions. Maybe you are callous.
To clarify: I made fun of giddyup for his self-aggrandising theatrics, not his sadness about abortions. Again with the 'you're callous' crap. Sheesh. Of course I have feelings about this issue, and of course I'm glad you have a wee baby, but splurging one's over-emotive wankery onto the board hardly ever helps a discussion. IMO. (This could be one of those 'humour culture clashes', maybe? Hrm.)
I don't know what it is. In part, because I have no idea what emotive wankery is and I'm not sure who splurged it onto the board. Thanks for being glad .
Grieving is self-aggrandizing? Perhaps I did overplay a bit but it's only because you underplay in extreme fashion. Riddle me this: <b>You criticize pro-Lifers for not caring about every unwanted baby born while I criticize the parent's of an unwanted fetus for not loving hm or her enough to guarantee him/her a life here, there or somewhere.</b> How does that make sense? Over-emotive wankery?! I have 4 children; I've been present at the birth of each and every one. I've watched 3 of them through various kinds of intra-uterine imaging from approximate ages of 3 months until near-birth. I've seen them smiling in utero. I've seen them sucking their thumb, kicking, flailing and yawning. Compare that to your textbook claptrap.
Every abotion is alike in one way: the outcome for the poor child. Is that too dramatic? If a young couple is willing to terminate a child of their creating, they should be sturdy enough to birth it and give it up for adoption. What's a few months of inconvenience compared to a death sentence?
You know, if I wanted to, I could give you just as many heart-tugging ultra-personal stories about people whose experiences with pregnancy and parenthood haven't been so ideal, because they were so unwilling to be parents in the first place, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Or I could post pictures of women haemorrhaging to death on bathroom floors after botched abortions (who's 'callous' now, btw? Saying 'they chose that option so tough sh*t' - essentially your position - is *deeply* disturbing to me, but whatever). The point is, I think your obvious emotional manipulation is the worst kind of fakery here, because a) your empathy for things only extends to foetuses, not women and b) you're assuming, *wrongly*, that pro-choice people don't deal with these issues when they make their decisions - as if you, the Great Enlightener, need to let us all know because otherwise we wouldn't think about it! Yeah, OK... My 'textbook claptrap', as you so respectfully refer to it, is resolutely *im*personal because these debates always end up being so emotional. But I don't see why my historical facts and general context are less valid than your experiences with being a Dad.
They don't have to be parents; they just "have to" NOT take away the baby's SINGLE chance at life. Hemorrhaging women is a tragedy in and of itself but you can't deny the circumstance that they chose that risk for themselves. Give life to the baby and give it up. Much safer and more dignified. The baby would never choose abotion FOR ITSELF. My "emotional manipulation" is nothing but my pulling back the curtain and personalizing something your side tries to leave behind at the clinical level. Those are soon-to-be real people, real vulnerable people just waiting to be born. I'm sorry if the truth hurts you; maybe it will wake someone up. You are feeling manipulated because you are deceiving yourself with a easily crumbled argument. All you can do is cling to it resolutely as a preference while being unable to deny the stark truths it tries to deny. It's called shining the light in a dark place. Specific is always more valid than general, no? Historical is statistical and not personal. That is a short-coming of your argument.
Yeah, history isn't 'personal'. Right. Look, this is clearly more about your smug sense of moral superiority than it is about anything else. However, I assure you that your opinions are not particularly original, nor are you enlightening me with some profound 'truth' that I am afraid to confront. What I'm saying is that there is more to this issue than the black and white, simplistic morality you espouse.
<b>dimsie</b>: If you want to talk about history, the number of aborted children would astronomically dwarf the number of women who have died from botched abortions. Is it still not okay to grieve? They are all tragic but none more tragic than the deaths of the innocent children. Why is resolute equated with smug? I may come off as smug because I am not trying to politically change <b>you</b>. My intent is to smash your arguments, so don't take it personally. I just don't want to let what I consider to be self-serving arguments for the pro-Choice position go unchallenged. It means a life. It's not a choice; it's a Life. Oft-heard but true. Of course my opinions are not original. That's because they are the plain and obvious truth-- plainly evident for ALL to see and know. Even those who eschew it must wonder in their heart of hearts about their "choices" which dodge obvious possibilities. You can wrangle any of several arguments to justify your decisions but it still leaves you ignoring the obvious but unconvincing facts about life and death and un-born children. You can't tell me for certain that an 8-week old fetus is <b>not</b> a human being and that has to haunt you in your "choice" to end that little life. You have <B>absolutely now way of knowing</b> that for a certainty. There is only more to the issue when you or others try to obfuscate the obvious with lame justifications for your "choices."
giddyup said giddyup also said Interesting, dimsie has no way of knowing if she's right, but giddyup's opinions are "plain and obvious truth". Hmmmmmmm
Anyone <b>having</b> an abortion certainly has dire second thoughts about the impact of the decision. Anyone <b>not having</b> an abortionhas no such doubt or remorse. This is one of the legitimizing planks of the pro-Choice crowd: it is a heartfelt and not a casual choice. That fetus "might be" a human being. Some of us have no doubt about that. The "might be" argument is undeniable. It is not just "my opinion," it is the way women respond to their choice to have an abortion. Virtually all women who have abortions experience this regret that often runs deep. It may take years to rise to the surface but it is "almost always" there and can become destructive in their lives down the road. Denial is a powerful thing.
Very true. It's all tragic. None more so than the other. Very few people want to force a woman to use a coat hanger on the bathroom floor. Many more people DO want the mother to choose life. Abortion is painful not only for the mother, but the father as well. All pubescent girls and boys NEED to know that if you're not willing to have a baby with someone, then you shouldn't f*** them. Condoms, the pill, other methods DO NOT always work at preventing pregnancy. Abortion is THE fatal form of birth control. Abstinence is the safest. And, really, it's only natural for young teenage couples to fall in love and get pregnant. It's our society that says it's not. If you can get pregnant, you can get AIDS. It happens to many good girls and boys. The humor, by some, in this thread bothered me. Especially, when that person says that, "what peeves her about the pro-life, you can't make me sanction abortion crowd" is how 90% of them think single mothers are evil and shouldn't receive welfare help when needed. And these people who grieve abortions, *invariably*, don't really give a damn about children after they are born. This kind of thinking is troublesome. And I hope it's clear to all that life begins to grow when the egg is fertilized.
Giddy -- I understand you have strong opinions about this matter, but please don't assume to know how "virtually all" women feel. My mother had an abortion when I was eight and my sister was one year old. My mother's birth control had failed, and the doctor told her that because of her high blood pressure there was a very good chance that either she or the baby or both would die during the pregnancy. This had very nearly happened when my sister was born. She discussed it with my father and they went ahead with the abortion. There was no question in her mind. Either she terminate the pregnancy and the potential of life, or she continue and risk leaving her two young daughters without a mother and my father a widower. I would have made the same choice. I have seen no ill or "destructive" effects from it. She has no regret or remorse -- it was simply the wisest choice she could make with all the information she had at hand. You'll find personal stories on both sides of the issue. Undoubtedly, there are women who feel regret and remorse -- often they were coerced or pushed into having the abortion even though it went against their own judgement. I feel bad for all those who suffer with regret. But there are many other women, like my mother, who know they made the right decision when they had their abortion. They know that they made the right choice for themselves so there is no need for remorse.
Mrs. JB, I'm sorry to inform you that you're actually wrong about your own mother, despite all your well-informed evidence. You see, giddyup has given us all the *real truth*, which *he knows*, so all of our pro-choice stories have no relevance. Just wanted to make you aware of our current situation. Right1: this *is* a humour culture clash, obviously. (I'm reminded of that webpage 'Things My Girlfriend and I Have Argued About', which has a special section of the FAQ just for Americans!) I wouldn't bother being disturbed by me. I've always been quite troublesome. Doing my part to keep the thread going, DM.
