I was just wondering what everyone's feelings are about this subject. ------------------ www.swirve.com I think my w**** is dead.
Well this thread is off to an impressive start. ------------------ "You have to think optimistic. I think it's never over till it's over." - Clyde Drexler after losing at home to go down 3-1 to the Suns in '95
Argh! This is one issue I don't really touch. I'm pro-choice (and not a whiny b**** ;P), but I don't think it's something you can really debate (something I've learned through experience). Either you believe that life begins with conception, or you don't. You can't prove it either way. To me, it's like arguing about whether God is real. Sure, there are all these pseudo-scientific arguments eithre way, but they're really just rationalizations. Trying to convince yourself that there are reasons for how you feel. I really feel all the other issues are subordinate. I mean, yeah, pregnancy can be HELL for teenage girls in strict families... but if it's murder, then that really doesn't matter in the end. Likewise, if human life begins at birth, then outlawing abortion just gives a lot of unnecessary pain. ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche [This message has been edited by haven (edited April 05, 2001).]
lmao! Oh my goodness.... that one's going to leave a mark for sure. ------------------ "You have to think optimistic. I think it's never over till it's over." - Clyde Drexler after losing at home to go down 3-1 to the Suns in '95
great way to start off an otherwise touchy subject. anyway, im 100% against it. abortion is murder. i dont see it as any different from ancient civilizations burying little baby girls for no reason. ------------------ president of the sleepy floyd to hall of fame club. http://www.it-is-truth.org
Haven, It's not that cut and dry. If its murder for me to kill another womans fetus, then its murder for her to kill it. No if, ands, or butts! Agree on abortion if: 1) the mothers life is in (real) danger. (blah blah you can say "how can you chose who lives or dies between the mother and the child", but if you or a buddy life was in danger, it's not murder for you to save youself) 2) The baby is going to be r****ded or severely deformed In the middle of abortion: 1) Incest And Ali Cat, its not 'religious zealots', its about whether its 'murder' or not. 2) Rape (more against it) Against abortion: 1) Birth Control ------------------ Nice guys finish last ... and im surely not going to finish last!
I just can't understand why conservatives are against it....other than the whole religious thing. I'm all for it. Not choice that is, but abortions. The more the merrier. Not people that is, but abortions. ------------------ stop posting my damn signature
I'm pro-adoption. If you didn't want to have a kid, then you shouldn't have gotten pregnant. Also you should at least serve the 9 month sentence that comes along with your "mistake". I really like the tattoo idea rimbaud. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited April 05, 2001).]
If you do nothing and your buddy dies, it's not murder. But if you actually kill him, well, I think Assistant District Attorney Jack McCoy would have something to say about that. Better consult your lawyer before you find yourself in that situation. ------------------ Brought to you by the letter M.
Abortion is something that should ALWAYS be up to the mother to decide. the father should be involved in that decision too, and ususlly is. This issue is not cut an dry however. I want to ask if any of you that are ALL for, or ALL against have ever had run ins with abotion in your lives? I paid for an abotion once. it was not my kid, but this was during my freshman year in college. a girl had a wild night, and ended up at a frat house late. she apparently ended up having sex with a guy,but she didnt remember much. she had only been with 1 previous guy(serious boyfriend in HS 2+years) this incident in college happens the weekend after they broke up. so it turned out that the guy didnt use protection. she ended up pregnant. he denied ever knowing her(actually denied any responcibility) this girl woulf have had to drop out of school and she had big plans. she had little money, and I worked so I gave her $100 to help her out. near the end of freshman year she met a guy that she is now married to. he is the father of her 2 children. she works as a nurse at a mojor hospitol. this is a great family. they are great children. they would never of happened if she had to leave school to have her kid. that kid would have been without a father. she would have been reminded of her one mistake every day in her life. I support a womans right to choose. I have also had a female friend (more like a sister) have a child with a man she once loved only to break up with him 8 mos after child birth. she totally lives off her parents and hates him because she is in that situation. he is the greatest guys ever. one of my best friends. he is now forced to pay 500/ month to support the child which she spends at the bars looking for a new man. my bud John loves his daughter, but the thing here is that the daughter deserves a better life than this. a little girs shouldnt have her mother bad mouth the dad, than go out to bars and bring back strange men. this story in not an endorsement, nor denouncement of abortion, however I think their lives would have been better the last 2.5 years if they had gotten the abortion. I live their kid, but that is how I feel. BIRTHCONTROLL is the way to go. everyone should be on birth controll (male+female) untill given a parenting license. ------------------ Hanta-Force Paintball www.hanta-force.com
Some points, Voice of Reason: 1. Adoption was an alternative in each of your cases mentioned. The decision wasn't necessarily only between having the baby and raising it or getting an abortion. Just thought I'd point that out, but I'm not trying to say that either of these women made the wrong choice in either having or not having an abortion. There was just a potential choice that wasn't mentioned in your stories. and 2. In your second example, the parents act like jerks. And that happens even in cases where the child is wanted from the get-go. People break up, divorces happen. The fact that these parents can't act like adults doesn't mean that an abortion would've been the right decision. My father's birth parents were idiots. They split up and got back together. They fought, etc., etc., etc. So my father was put up for adoption and raised by an older couple who were great to him. He's now a successful physician who has served his country (in the Air Force), saved lives, shared his expertise with the less fortunate (he has participated in trips to Belarus to perform medical procedures and to teach local health care providers) and produced four children of his own. His early childhood wasn't pretty, but I could never say that he would've been better off being aborted. There are all sorts of people who can and do contribute great things to our society who grew up under less-than-optimal circumstances. This child in the second example doesn't even appear to have it so bad. If having a slightly uncomfortable childhood means that you'd be better off having been aborted, there wouldn't be too many people left to populate the world. I just think that being pro-choice means that we should respect a woman's decision to choose and respect the choice she does make. I don't want to second guess anyone's decision. And I would never say that a woman would've been better off by making a different decision that the one she made. In the end, I don't care whether women have abortions or not. It's their business, not mine. I would just hope that every woman who considers an abortion does so carefully and thoughtfully before having or not having the procedure. And if a woman I was involved with got pregnant, I would hope she'd consult with me before having an abortion and at least take my opinion into consideration in her decision. And for the record, I have been in a situation where abortion was an alternative. My girlfriend became pregnant when we were sixteen. We briefly discussed abortion as a potential option but dismissed it because it wasn't right for us. We had a wonderful son born that February (we had both turned 17 by the time he was born), and becomming a father was the best thing that could ever have happened to me. It gave me purpose and direction, and it made me far more responsible that I otherwise would have been. My older son is now 12, and I couldn't imagine a life without him. So, in my situation not having an abortion was the right choice. But my experience is not universal. And past results are not noecessarily indicitive of future success. ------------------ Houston Sports Board
good response Mrpaige. I ment to add adoption as well. unfortunately with adoption the mother feel guilty knowing their child is running around in someone elses house. not like an abotion dosnt make them think they couls have a kid runnig around instead of nothing. after all is said and done Its not really about the child. there will be both great and terrible people raised in all circumstances. so the child will become great, or terrible almost nomatter what we do. My main concern is for the parents, or potential parents. in my first example, her having the abortion did not in any way limit her ability to have a special family, or raise an einstein or what have you. she has that, she is doing that. mainly she has had a better life than if she was "forced" by a little mistake to be a young mother. in the 2nd example my concern is for my 2 friends. they are both under extreme stress. both financial as well as emotional. their experiences as parents would have come eventually no matter what. I just would like to see my friends happy now, as well as happy later with their own families. unfortunately there is no time to be hapy now. they are both miserable. and they both have this child. it does not make it any easier for each of them to find a mate now. also since this woman has not even tried to be more mature as a mom, it does not bode well for the child. she smoked and drank during the entire pregnancy(which is partly why they broke up.-her cheating on him was the rest) she is living off other people she is not ready to be a mom. this does not mean that if she had the abortion, or gave up for adoption that she wont make a great mom in a few years. she is just too immature for that. whatever, use birth controll peace ------------------ Hanta-Force Paintball www.hanta-force.com [This message has been edited by The Voice of Reason (edited April 05, 2001).]
vor, after trying to read your posts, I always love seeing that you actually edit your posts. lol! p.s. abotions rule! hahaha ------------------ \../
The problem with adoption as the definitive answer is that it's ultimately self-defeating. As long as some abortions take place, it works as an alternative... but if EVERYONE gave up the children for adoption, instead of aborting them, there wouldn't be enough homes willing to take them in. Yes, there are lots of families willing to adopt... but there are far more abortions. thefreak: that comment to Voice of Reason was inappropriate, I think. If you're going to respect other people, then part of that is acknowledging that our own moral rubrics aren't always right. If you really believe abortion is murder... then fight against it. But don't use your own moral framework to judge everyone else. THat's not right. You know, I take that back (edit)... I just read in the religion thread about the executing of women for adultery, and that offends the hell out of me. Damn, it's a tough world . ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche [This message has been edited by haven (edited April 05, 2001).]
What is inappropriate about quoting someone directly? There was no opinion in my post. Let me know what was factually incorrect about anything I said. You're judging me now, all I did was repeat what he said.
Errr... refer above. Your phrasing did your talking for you . Vile distorter! jk According to the pro-choice perspective, personhood is fundamentally a product of experience and post-natal existence. "She" didn't exist; therefore, she couldn't have been dead. In fact, the neurons in the brain don't connect until the 7th-8th month, which is when I think abortion is valid until. ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche [This message has been edited by haven (edited April 05, 2001).]
Hypothetical: Lets say she had a miscarriage with one of her children presently. I bet she would have been extremely broken hearted then. She probably would have felt like she lost a life and that here child died. How do you reconcile the dissapointment of a miscarriage when you want the child with the acceptance of the abortion when you dont want the child? Just curious. I dont like abortions but am nonetheless pro-choice. ------------------
