andymoon I certainly understand how passionately you feel about a woman being able to abort a baby if she makes that choice. I hope you understand how passionately I am concerning the death of the baby. You passionately want to protect the mother's choice to the abortion. I passionately want to protect the baby. It is that simple. I respect that. I know you frame the unborn baby as expendable (I mean in the sense the highest good is not to protect it in the womb) and find no wrong moral choice in abortion. I frame the unborn baby as valuable and not expendable. Forcing a moral decision on another is not what abortion laws or any other law does. NO law forces anyone to do anything. All laws define what is morally right and enforce consequences for violations. (that is what they are supposed to do in theory) All laws simply define moral consequences. Laws such as driving while drunk, rape, murder, theft, etc only define the consequences of violating a moral law. If you believe abortion is morally right then you must accept that legalized abortion is morally right. If I define abortion as morally wrong, then you must also understand why I would find a legal abortion wrong. To say that it is only wrong because it is 'forcing my morals on another' is unfair and not reasonable to the law system in total. Every law should be enforced, not as a means of forcing an opinion but as enforcement on a moral basis. That is why you cannot murder and steal, be caught and not face consequences. Because there are laws because it is morally wrong. We only disagree because you don't have a conviction that it is wrong. I do. Whenever someone makes that ' don't force your morals on someone else' statement it seems to me it is an effort to dumb down the issue. Abortion used to be illegal because it was wrong in the same way murder and rape were wrong. Back alley abortions were illegal. I don't want to return to back alley abortions. Do you really think I view the danger a mother faces with a back alley abortion any different that I view an abortion? I don't. Hate them both. Reduce the need and causes for abortions and the back alley abortion issue can be successfully addressed. Do you know exactly how many women have been severely injured by legal abortions? Did you know that mal practice from abortion is much higher with legal abortions than it ever was from back alley abortions simply due to the increase in abortions alone? Did you know that more women are injured and traumatized today than ever before from legal abortions. (Far more than the back alley abortions) The problem we face today is that if we did make abortion illegal we would have a huge problem with back alley abortions because we have indoctrinated our youth to see abortion as birth control. Even Planned Parenthood affirms abortion as birth control. We have created a very difficult cultural problem by this view. I still in good conscience do not think that abortion is the right answer to a very difficult problem. We all have the intelligence and resolve to come up with better solutions to our problems. The war on drugs is a failure The war on terror is a failure But the war on the unborn is huge success I am sad because I really believe we have taken the wrong course and bought the wrong solution to all three I named above. That is only my opinion. And abortion threads bring the strongest opinions out for me. Thanks for the dialogue, I certainly didn't expect us to see it the same way, but I wanted to share an opinion on behalf of the baby who is being taken into an abortion clinic in its own mother's womb. I once read a sign that simply said- The Most Dangerous Place on Earth- Inside a mother's womb
Sure she can, she can also choose to use birth control or as a last resort have an abortion. However, a man's choice in the process ends when he leaves his seed inside the woman. There are plenty of ways at his disposal to make sure that he does not impregnate a woman and if he doesn't want to be financially impacted by child support, he can take the steps necessary. Can a man not choose to keep his pecker out of the woman?
alot of things use to be common place and widely beleived Desert Scar - You stated the mortality rate is higher in Child birth than Abortion I totally Disagree Abortion Math [Theoretical] BIRTH - let's assume 25 % of all mother die in child birth and assume 50% of the children Abortion - let's Assume 10% of mothers Die . . .we know 100% of the children die Real Numbers - 100 Mother and 100 children Births = 75 Deaths - 25 mothers and 50 kids Abortion = 110 Deaths 10 mothers and 100 Kids I guess if you dismiss child deaths than you maybe right honestly, In the future Abortion maybe seen as a shock and horror of our time .. . as we often look back at slavery and the Holocaust and are stumped .. thinking. . . PEOPLE ALLOWED THIS PEOPLE FOUGHT TO PRESERVE THIS PEOPLE WERE VEHEMENTLY OPPOSED TO IT ENDING!! Morality is a Social System It is not everyman for himself. . if so . .what was bad about Jeff Dahmer? He beleive in Canibalism . . so what if his victims do not [Mother beleive in Abortion . . even if the unborn child does not] As Far as Choices We move mountains to give a woman choice but we work hard to limit a man's choices in these matters and we give the child no choice at all The decision to have or not have a baby is MADE WHEN YOU LAY DOWN A person saying they got pregnant accidently is like a person buying a lotto ticket and saying it was an accident. . when you behave in a what that can have certain results. . it isn't an accident it may have been unlikely. . it may have been rare . . but it could happen and you did it anyway . . . But Once again America and it QUICK FIX mentality No Responsibility FAT - don't work out and eat right.. . JUST SUCK IT OUT Abortion - don't own up to what ya did .. . . JUST SUCK IT OUT and forget about it . . . Potential Life >>>>>>> Actual Inconvience Rocket River Rocket River
If his Choice stops at inception . . . so does hers!! If he kicks her in the stomach and she loses the baby . . Assualt or Murder? Rocket River
it is absurd that people make such a giant moral stand on abortion but don't care about americans already alive and in need of health care, education etc. i think abortion has to be legal because the majority of america thinks it should be. i also think it should be a last resort.
No joke. I'd much rather spend all of this time and effort on getting universal health care and a school system that doesn't suck. It seems to me that there are topics that are a much higher priority and that would effect a larger portion of the population.
I have been inside one of those clinics a sign there struck me VERY ironic It said . . .No Kids Allowed I thought . . 'No Sh*T' but I thought about it more Why would they not want kids there? Is it the same reason folx don't want to see the pictures of aborted Fetuses because they don't want people reminded of that they are REALLY DOING It is a physical example of the gravity of the situation Rocket RIver
I just find it humorous how a set of morals can change over time. Tens of thousands of years ago, nobody knew what the hell was happening inside a woman's body...sure they put a few things together here and there, knew man and woman made baby, but still...life was when the baby came into the world, before that was a mystery! If a clump of cells that can one day become a human baby be considered a life, then certainly it shoudl be illegal for men to masturbate, ejaculating all that semen that may one day be life, too, right??
Yeah, because everyone who is pro-life is against funding education and is against socialized medicine.
I think things were put in a specific order in the Constitution . . LIFE - 1st and foremost. . if you not alive. . does education matter? . . Liberty - with out Liberty .. alot of things are not important or possible . .like . . THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS Rocket River
i never said anything remotely similar. my point is that they should be a bigger priority. we can do something about education and healthcare. we will never come to an agreement about abortion, the best we can do is compromise. sorry, that's just the way it is.
our constitution starts: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Just saw you are a Red Rowdie! Best of luck, I am for you (getting my mini plan today hopefully) Been an honor to discuss with you. (Go Rockets)
And one of the major differences between those cases and abortion is that the VAST majority of us believe that they are morally wrong whereas that is simply not the case with abortion. No, the big problem is that a small minority of people is trying to force their morality on people that do not believe the same thing. That would be kind of like a Muslim group saying that we need to force women to wear burkahs in America because they believe that women wearing what they want is immoral. People can believe what they want and they can have any morals that they want until they start trying to enforce their own morality on people who do not believe the same things. And when it comes to murder or rape or robbery or any of thousands of other things, you have 99% of the people in the country agreeing that it is morally wrong. That is simply not the case with abortion. No, it is an effort to keep you from forcing your individual morality on another person through the use of force. But you can address the causes for abortion without making it illegal. In fact, it is far easier to address those causes in the context of a regulated framework. I honestly don't believe that we would see a return to the "back alley abortions" that we had in the '50s and '60s if abortion were to be banned. We would see RU-486 become much more prevalent and available through black market sources as that would be a far easier method of abortion. Unfortunately, there would be no medical supervision which would cause far more problems and would not significantly reduce the abortion rate, IMO. There are certainly some large problems with abortions, but those problems will not be solved by an abortion ban, they would be pushed underground, where the root causes cannot be addressed as easily. Agreed, but an abortion ban is not a "better solution." There is no "war on the unborn," no matter how much you believe there is. Thank you for remaining calm in the face of such a contentious issue. It is nice to see that there are Americans who can talk about even this issue without calling names or flaming. And the most dangerous place in the world today is Iraq.
Nope. No matter what, if he chooses, he can abdicate his responsibility almost completely by leaving or choosing not to stay with the woman. He made the choice to have sex without proper protection and that was his own choice. Her choice extends further than that because she will have to use her body to bring the fetus to term and bear it. That is a much bigger responsibility than any man will ever have to face, no matter the amount of child support he might have to pay. It is definitely assault, but murder depends on what state it happens in.
