help me with this, rim...belief in birth and life being already laid out?? like predestination??? i see a ton of that in the Bible. as one of my friends says, "i believe in predestination, i just have no idea how it works!" there is a tension between predestination and free will in Christianity...I believe that both exist, but that it's on different planes we really can't grasp. I think there's ample evidence of that in scripture...and since I'm Presbyterian, it fits in nicely with Calvinism! i just realized i'm really rambling if that's not what you meant!
On the first point: Nature is rough enough on us, let's not add to the damage! On the second point: emphasis on theory. That little life is here now. In certainty, it will turn into a human being unless nature or the abortionist has other plans. Let the little life continue.
Of course, that's why the innocent little lives deserve protecting. They are not theoretical. They will be humans in just a few short months if left alone by the darker side of nature and by the abortionists.
I think your viewing the belief in a rather myopic way, however. It isn't as if my beliefs lead me to that conclusion. I'm basically a Buddhist-leaning person but the Dalai Lama doesn't sanction abortion. It is just something that I believe but it isn't as if I shrug it off like, "Eh, let 'em die. What do I care?" This isn't some thing I entered into lightly or without thought. I could argue that, because I once was a born-again Christian, I've thought about it MORE than most. I spent years pouring over spiritual ideologies to try and find something that resonated with me. I'm still looking and learning. In some ways, it could be argued that you've sealed off your mind to the possibilities of life. For example, how do you know that is that child's one shot at life? And, assuming it is, they still have a soul which ends up in heaven, correct? Isn't that the ultimate goal of living for Christians anyway? I'm not saying you are wrong or I am right. I'm saying that...well, Shakespeare said it best, "There are far more things in heaven and on earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." I'm just trying to see the possibility and be open to it. For me, that is what this life is all about.
<b>Jeff</b>: Outside of a circumstance of war or a mother's health in jeapordy, I cannot justify the deprival of life of an innocent party. We are all walled-off from some of the possibilities of life: some moreso than others. I'm sure my ranking is higher than yours, though! I can honestly say that I've never "searched for" the answer to this issue. To me it is so plainly obvious; why the need to look for confirmation? I was anti-abortion before embracing any kind of Christianity other than that which was in the general culture. I've never wavered-- not even through my Quaker years. LOL!
I can't believe I am about to do this but I have to <gulp> defend richrocket here. I'm pretty sure he meant that he (RR) is more walled off than Jeff, not the other way around. If I'm wrong, though, roll your eyes till they hurt.
Thanks, <b>dylan</b>, that is what I meant to say and didn't make it very clear. If you just don't give up hope, help can come from the strangest of sources... <b>Cohen</b> reads my posts with the heart of a sniper.
Sorry if you feel that way giddyup/RR. In a BBS, I think wording is far more important than in face-to-face since other communication cues are missing. I'll try to be a less literal literate. BTW, why the re-reg?
Max, This is actually close to something I discussed with haven recently. Four dimensional time is essentially that the "point" of one's birth is the same as the point of death. In other words, you start at one corner of a square (easy example because it has four sides) and progress until you complete the outline of the square, leaving you back to the original point. Thus, birth and death occur at the same point in time. Now, haven has heard someone make the argument that free will is still possible (on a philosophical level), but I do not see it unless multiple parrallel universes can exist - where independent changes can occur, only on different "planes." So, what you said was similar but different. Certainly not rambling. giddyup ("rich" was so much easier!), They are theories based upon lower truths, really. Four dimensional time is an expansion from Einstein, while universes are a result of the fact that atoms can exist in multiple places at the same time...if that is true and it is also true that atoms are a part of Koestler's line of holons, being part of the foundation of everything in the universe, then *technically* they should remain true at higher levels. By the way, to anyone reading this -- this is off of the top of my head and is something with which I am no expert or even that comfortable, if I am wrong in anything, please correct me. DoD could probably help out. Back to the thread - In respect to the destruction of life before birth, I guess my point was along these lines (keep in mind that I am not an advocate of reincarnation, nor am I an outright rejector...I simply am somthing else): If it is true that the deck of life is stacked against us and that, naturally, 3-5 embryos are destroyed for every one that can "make it" then perhaps it is more harmonious to believe in reincarnation (if we are to think of nature as being balanced/harmonious/driven by devine). In other words, nature is not uselessly piling up the death toll...that everyone gets a turn, so to speak. Just a different take on the matter from a more neutral pseudo-scientific angle. Couple this with the fact that aspects of nature demonstrate a "collective consciousness" (birds when flying in packs, mushrooms that are really millions of separate organisms that consotently grow into the same shape, carrots, etc) suggesting a more complicated unity and maybe it could be seen as compelling, or at least less depressing. Jeff, I always found Plato's argument (speaking for Socrates) for reincarnation interesting when he discusses the nature of genius. Are you familiar with it... that all geniuses really are are people that simply remember things from past life/collective soul consciousness, etc immediately from birth?
Anti-abortion group's display forced to move from campus Protesters have filed suit against UT By Peter Walker (Daily Texan Staff) March 01, 2002 An anti-abortion demonstration led by the Southern California-based group Survivors was moved off the West Mall Thursday because the group lacked sponsorship from a registered student organization. Dan McCullough, Survivors director, said the group has filed a lawsuit against the UT System over the arrest of one of its members during a similar demonstration at UT-El Paso last week. "We are suing the UT System for our right to be on their campus," Mc-Cullough said. "They're denying us access to their campuses based on what we represent." McCullough added that the group is not seeking financial restitution. A spokesperson for the UT System general counsel said the office has no knowledge of the lawsuit. Tanny Norwood, assistant dean of students, said Survivors couldn't demonstrate on campus according to UT policy because a registered student organization had not sponsored the group. "That is considered solicitation by an off-campus entity, and that is not allowed," she said. Similar to the Justice for All exhibit that has visited the University the past two years, the group uses graphic displays. Members of the group held up 5-by-3-foot pictures of an aborted fetus' severed head held by forceps. About 15 anti-abortion supporters attended the demonstration. A physical altercation occurred between a UT student and an anti-abortion activist when the student pushed away the literature the activist was holding. "I saw the guy grabbing her arm and lunge toward her," said Brazos Price, a psychology senior. "I stepped in front of him and tried to restrain him." Several students expressed their disapproval of the group's displays as they walked by. Jake Gotcher, an American studies junior, said he believes in free speech under the First Amendment, but thought the display "was going too far." "I think it's absolutely disgusting. It's publicly offensive," Gotcher said. Gotcher added that the display was particularly offensive to women who have had abortions, as they have had trying experiences. Keith Mason, Midwest director of Survivors, said the group received "mainly negative comments" from students passing by. Some students stopped to debate abortion with the group. "We didn't expect the campus to be this closed or cold," Mason said. Aaron Garza, president of Undergraduate Students Association, said he supports Survivors' right to free speech, regardless of the offensive content. Garza, a communication studies junior, said the group could have stayed on campus "if they had found students to sponsor them, but they didn't even do that." He added that the University has the right to control who visits the campus, and if Survivors sues the University, he doubts the group will win the case and doesn't expect off-campus groups to gain solicitation rights. Chris Keys, who runs a pregnancy crisis center in Burnett, said that although he was not a member of Survivors, he came out to show his support along with his 11-year-old daughter. Keys said his daughter has been involved in protests like this since she was two. "She begged me to come out today," he said. "She wanted to do something for herself." Keys described himself as a "contraception abolitionist" and said he opposed all forms of birth control, arguing that rape, child molestation and abortion have all increased since the introduction of condoms. link Warning: Picture at link is graphic. The majority of UT students don't give a ****. I guess anti-abortionists haven't figured it out yet.
I went to a fundraising dinner last night for a group that operates the CareNet Pregnancy Centers in Houston. They provide free medical services to pregnant women, help them find adoptive homes (if that's what the woman wishes), provide her with job/computer training, assist with rent or necessaries for the health of the mother (and, thus, the health of the baby), give parenting classes to men and women, and other similar services. Amazingly touching to hear the stories they encounter on a daily basis. in previous years they had a woman speak who was a living abortion....the chemicals they used (this was a while back) didn't "take" and she lived...it was the practice of doctors in abortion clinics to slit the neck of the semi-aborted child...but a nurse grabbed her and locked herself and the baby in an office and called for an ambulance...the ambulance came and brought the baby to a hospital...the woman is moderately healthy..she has some health concerns, though, which doctors link to the chemicals they used for abortions. she was raised by an adoptive family and has since reconciled with her birth mother. they both speak on the horrors of abortion together. the woman is a singer...in her lifetime she's fallen in love, made people smile, made people angry, used her talents, worshipped her God and all the other things that I take for granted so often...and the world and all those who love her would never have known her if not for the brave actions of the nurse. you be the one to tell her she's supposed to be dead (or to never have existed). also saw a document dating back a while from Planned Parenthood when they first came to Houston years ago....the letter trumpeted its goal of carrying out more abortions than any other city in the country. what a goal! i find that flat out evil. (sorry to those who are offended by my views on absolutes). i feel really strongly about this issue...i really temper it in here (though some of you might think i'm still a jackass about it!). i just can not fathom this practice or a world that tolerates it. makes me very sad and angry all at once.
