In every book I have read about WW 2, the soldiers complained about the conditions or equipment. For a few examples see "The Good War" by Studs Turkel or "Band of Brothers" by Ambrose. Why do we expect the soldiers of today to be any different? Because we disagree with them?
We'd likely be eating tea and crumpets, singing "God Save the Queen" and trying to figure out why our dentists are so poorly trained......
I agree with the way the troops feel, but I think putting these feelings out in public is bad because it could make their situation more dangerous. The last thing we need is for the people responsible for the attacks on soldiers to believe that their morale is low. They'll probably think that they should step up hostilities in an effort to get our military to pull out.
Troop homecoming KOd Kin, general's wife fuming over switch By RICHARD SISK DAILY NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU WASHINGTON - War-weary troops of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division lashed out yesterday at the Pentagon's latest about-face on sending them home from Iraq, and even the general's wife wrote to other spouses to say she was angry. "I realize many of you are upset. I am too," Anita Blount, wife of Maj. Gen. Buford Blount, wrote in an anguished E-mail to the wives of soldiers under her husband's command. "I will also admit that when I heard the recent news about another delay in redeployment, I was angry," she said in trying to console the spouses. "I want my husband home just as you do." Her remarkable E-mail, however, urged the families <b>not to go public with their anger for fear of encouraging the enemy. The Iraqis, she wrote, "believe that their continued attacks on American soldiers are having the desired affect and are diminishing the resolve of the American people to complete the task in Iraq." </b> The 3rd Infantry Division's troops, who led the drive on Baghdad and have been in Iraq the longest, didn't hesitate to vent their fury. "It feels like we died and this is our hell," fumed Pvt. Matthew Davis, 20, of Omaha. "I'm tired of waking up wondering if this is the day I'm going to die," said Spec. David Myers, 23, of Tampa. "We've been here since the beginning. It's time to go." The division, which has suffered 37 combat deaths, had departure dates canceled in May and late June, and instead were ordered to pacify the town of Fallujah, the scene of some of the fiercest and most frequent guerrilla attacks. 'Everything ... has changed' Only last week, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told the Senate that the division would complete a staged withdrawal by September. But in his own E-mail to the families disclosed Monday, Blount said that at least 9,000 of the 3rd Infantry's 16,500 troops would be staying indefinitely "due to the uncertainty of the situation in Iraq and the recent increase in attacks on the coalition forces." "I wish I could tell you how long" before homecoming, Blount wrote, "but everything I have told you before has changed." The Army and the Pentagon appeared to backtrack again yesterday in a possible reaction to the open bitterness of the troops and the disappointment of their families. Pentagon spokesmen initially said the bulk of the 3rd Infantry would have to stay until late fall, but the military's Central Command said later that the division could still be home by September, "pending international or U.S. replacement units." Rumsfeld has yet to name U.S. replacement units, and India, France and Germany have rejected pleas in recent days to join an international force. In her E-mail, Anita Blount said, "My heart goes out to all the soldiers and families of the units remaining in Iraq. We have the right to be disappointed, and it is understandable if we are angry." "I hate to ask you to dig deep for strength once again," she said, "but there is no other choice. I have to dig pretty deep myself." http://www.nydailynews.com/07-16-2003/news/story/101231p-91654c.html
i don't have a problem with complaints..or feeling bad in awful conditions..but using the media as a tool for this is not the best of ideas for the reasons mentioned above. really, i suppose, this has more to do with the media's coverage than the soldiers themselves.
It will take a while, but as our troop rotate back to the states during the occupation they will start to have an effect on public opinion against the occupation. It will be tough for the armchair flag waivers to try to accuse them of being liberals, traitors or un Americans. During the Vietnam War the Vietnam Vets Against the War organization always had a lot of moral authority.
did you honestly expect them to come back saying, "wow...that was great!!! much better than Cats..I'll see it again and again! i can't wait to go back!" ?????
The closest I've come to the militry is football and firefighting. In football, if the coach refuses to change the snap count and runs the same play over and over again that the defense is firing off as soon as you do and stuffing the play every time, you get demoralized regardless of what the cheerleaders on the sideline are doing. In firefighting, we have strict command and control but also a turn-down protocol if folks aren't comfortable with the assignment. We want our folks aware of the risks, able to mitigate any excessive dangers, and able to communicate concerns. Likewise, we make it a point of communicating not only tactics, but strategy and conditions so everyone knows what part they are playing in the ultimate demise of the fire. If we left them out there digging line with their heads down, we would be much less effective. It's not a one-way street where the burden falls only on the grunts. If there is dissatisfaction in the ranks the commanders have a responsibility to address it the best they can, usually by communicating. In Iraq, the communications down the hierarchy seem to be lacking because there is a focus on tactics with little serious thought to strategy and, as has been pointed out before, I think there is an elitist attitude on behalf of this administration towards grunts. Evereyone should remember that firefighters, not incident commanders, put out fires and grunts, not generals or presidents, win wars.
I wish we would've had a turn-down protocol, I would've gotten the hell out of Somalia while the getting was good. Seriously, I understand their frustration, but my issue is that you don't air your views on the media. Actually, those guys could be in trouble and if I were their commanding officer, their ass would be nailed to the wall.
His concession to morale is that everyone will know their end date... nothing wrong with that, but we've already had a war where soldiers were only fighting for end dates and I think we're in danger of that happening here. ______________________ 'Guerrilla' War Acknowledged New Commander Cites Problems By Vernon Loeb Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, July 17, 2003; Page A01 The U.S. military's new commander in Iraq acknowledged for the first time yesterday that American troops are engaged in a "classical guerrilla-type" war against remnants of former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein's Baath Party and said Baathist attacks are growing in organization and sophistication. The statements by Army Gen. John P. Abizaid, in his first Pentagon briefing since taking charge of the U.S. Central Command last week, were in sharp contrast with earlier statements by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld. Abizaid also addressed the growing morale problems in the 3rd Infantry Division. He said that soldiers quoted yesterday on ABC News' "Good Morning America" questioning their mission in Iraq and calling for Rumsfeld's resignation were wrong and could be disciplined. "None of us that wear this uniform are free to say anything disparaging about the secretary of defense or the president of the United States. We're not free to do that. It's our professional code," he said. One of the soldiers, a specialist, said, "If Donald Rumsfeld was here, I'd ask him for his resignation." Another private added, "I used to want to help these people, but now, I don't really care about them anymore." Abizaid said he found it "very, very saddening as a professional soldier to hear that sort of thing." But he lauded the 3rd Infantry for fighting "magnificently during the war" and promised to bring its final two brigades home by September, acknowledging that plans for an earlier return had been put on hold because of concerns about the security situation in Iraq. He said it is "very, very important" for soldiers to "know when they're coming home," and he noted that his wife cried when his son's year-long deployment to South Korea was extended for three months. From now on, he promised, all troops in Iraq will know what their "end dates" are. In assessing the security situation in Iraq, Abizaid, 52, a Lebanese American who speaks fluent Arabic, expressed resolve and said improving conditions throughout the country are at odds with perceptions in Washington and reports in the Arab media. "Look, war is a struggle of wills," he said. "You look at the Arab press, they say, 'We drove the Americans out of Beirut. We drove them out of Somalia. We'll drive them out of Baghdad.' And that's just not true. They are not driving us out of anywhere." But at the same time, Abizaid offered an expansive and troubling assessment of conditions on the ground in Iraq. In addition to the guerrilla campaign being waged by the Baathists, he cited a resurgence of Ansar al-Islam, a fundamentalist group the State Department says is tied to al Qaeda, and the appearance of either al Qaeda or al Qaeda "look-alike" fighters on the battlefield. The Baathist attacks, most troubling to U.S. forces, he said, are being staged by former mid-level Iraqi intelligence officials and Special Republican Guard personnel, who have organized cells at the regional level and demonstrated the ability to attack U.S. personnel with improvised explosives and tactical maneuvers. These Iraqi forces, Abizaid said, "are conducting what I would describe as a classical guerrilla-type campaign against us. It's low-intensity conflict in our doctrinal terms, but it's war however you describe it." Abizaid's remarks were in sharp contrast to those of Rumsfeld, his boss, who insisted from the same lectern 21/2 weeks ago that the U.S. military was not involved in a guerrilla war and who said as recently as Sunday on ABC News that the fighting in Iraq did not fit the definition of guerrilla war. While Rumsfeld said that he did not have any good evidence that the Iraqi attacks were being coordinated at the regional level, Abizaid said yesterday that there is regional organization and that it is possible that these regional organizations could become connected throughout the country. "The level of resistance, I'm not so sure that I would characterize it as escalating in terms of number of incidents," Abizaid told reporters. "But it is getting more organized, and it is learning. It is adapting, it is adapting to our tactics, techniques and procedures, and we've got to adapt to their tactics, techniques and procedures." He hinted at a shift of emphasis, saying the focus on the size of the U.S. force in Iraq is misplaced as a measure of effectiveness against the Iraqi insurgents. "You all have to understand it's not a matter of boots per square [kilo]meter," he said. "Everybody wants to think that, but that's just not so. If I could do one thing as a commander right now, I would focus my intelligence like a laser on where the problem is, which is mid-level Baathist leaders." Bringing the 3rd Infantry Division home by September, Abizaid said, will require creating a "rotational scheme" to be presented to Rumsfeld this week involving Army, Marine and multinational forces. But there are few troops readily available to sustain a force of 148,000 in Iraq. The Army has 33 active-duty combat brigades. There are now 16 in Iraq, two in Afghanistan, two in South Korea and most of the rest are either committed to other missions or reconstituting, leaving just three brigades to send to Iraq as replacement forces. The recruitment of multinational forces, a Defense Department official said, is also proving problematic. The Hungarians, for example, have offered to send a truck company to Iraq but have no trucks, the official said. "They contribute 133 drivers, but no trucks, or mechanics, or anything else," he added. "Either somebody else is going to donate trucks, or they're going to be driving ours." Army units in line for deployment to Iraq, the official said, include a brigade of the 1st Infantry Division from Fort Riley, Kan., the Army's new Stryker Brigade from Fort Lewis, Wash., and a brigade from the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg, N.C., which returned from Afghanistan six months ago. The Army is also likely to activate two or more "enhanced" National Guard brigades by the beginning of next year for rotation to Iraq by March or April, the official said. "Every possible unit worldwide," he added, "is being considered for possible rotations in different mixes and matches. Nothing is untouchable."
green -- you should have said "quagmire!" that word is much more fun. and carries with it a TON of weight, apparently.
lol...why do people compare this to vietnam? honestly, can you give any valid similarities besides the fact that the fighting didn't end yet. come on man....quit being a drama queen.
This whole thing is depressing. I really don't want to use the word quagmire or Vietnam, but I'm running out of alternatives. I was originally more afraid off the peace than the war (though I was extremely worried about chemical weapons and such being used on the troops) and I see nothing that leads me to believe I was wrong about the concerns I had post-invasion. I know I'm thought of as a liberal, but I'm a patriotic liberal and dammit, I don't want to be right on this. A Greek tragedy is unfolding before our eyes and our country and our lives and more importantly, those of my children, will be diminished.
I have to agree with the slammer. No matter what the morale is of the troops they shouldn't be openly questioning orders. They aren't civilians, they don't have the same freedom of speech rights when it comes to military decisions. That's what you give up when you sign that dotted line.
Let's play "Iraq or Vietnam!" Which American conflict featured the following: * American soldiers are returning in body bags everyday. * There's no definite timetable for withdrawal. * There's no discernible goal or mission. * Soldier morale is low. * The host country doesn't want us there. * Surrounding countries are pressuring for withdrawal. Survey says?
