aaron brooks is in the lead for most improved player

rose has just as much speed, as bigger, and a much more explosive athlete. he can take over a game much easier than brooks can and is also a better defender and playmaker.

 

Brooks has a much, much better jump shot and layup skills to compensate, and he's no slouch when it comes to athleticism (39.5" vertical compared to Rose's 40.0").

I think Rose has a slight edge for the reasons you mentioned, but it's a lot closer than people would have you think. It just sucks that AB has to prove more because he's not a #1 overall draft pick...

 

Lowry has the best +/- on this team (by a huge margin). And the team was 4-8 without Lowry playing and 31-23 with him. Don't overrate Brooks just after the best stretch of his career. I still think Lowry is one of, if not the best backup point guard in the league and may still be a better fit with the starters on this team next season than a high usage gunner.

 

+/- (especially unadjusted +/-) is a worthless stat for judging individual talent. Stop using it.

 

agreed, go look at +, - on NBA.com during a game and tell us how much of a picture it paints to what actually is going on.

 

Part of the reason is because we have a VERY good bench so we match up well with other team's benches.

 

Nene has a better +/- then Billups, does that mean he should play the Point for the Nuggets?

 

It is just mind numbing to see the +/- stat given any respectability, so many factors go into that.

Got to get Yao the ball yo !

DD

 

No, it doesn't.

Any other stupid questions?

 

Might as well say that winning is a worthless stat for judging talent.

 

The more players you combine to get a collective +/- stat increases its worth. Its most meaningless point is on a single player.

 

Individual talent yes, group talent no.


Chucky Brown played solid minutes on the Rocket's championship team of 94-95. He was a contributor for a chip, but that does not mean a whole lot by itself.

Heck, just look at the Vince Young debate about winning.

 

You think its "worthless" that Lowry has a team-leading +/-. Fine.

I think it reflects what most people who watch the games should be able to see -- he's an extremely important game-changer for us off the bench, and one of the best at that role in the entire league. If he wasn't as good as he is, his +/- would probably be much worse.

 

I dont like the +/- used in the NBA.com, but Lowry is a very important backup, and a good compliment to Brooks, Kyle gives a lot to the rockets.
But I dont see him as the starting pg, he is a good 6th man

 

1. He is great for us.

2. He could still be great at that and have a crap +/-

The plus minus is a team stat, it is so dependent upon whom is in the game with Lowry.

It is not 100% useless, but it is given far too much credibility around here, at least imo.

DD

 

I think there are other factors that go into it. I see from watching the games that Lowry is the big game changer for us and he is SORELY missed when he is out with injury. I can't put all of that into one stat. I think Lowry is the best at what he does in the entire league. But I'm not going try and use a stat that backs up his "game changingness" as a way to diss on the guy starting in front in him.

 

If Lowry had a crap +/- on our team, I'm pretty sure he would not be playing as well as he had. That would mean that our second unit is lousy, and he's been the most important player on our second unit.

Everyone understand that +/- depends on a lot of factors. That doesn't mean you ignore it if a key rotation player leads a team ("by far") in it.

Oh, and who are all these amazing, star players that Lowry has gotten to play with that inflates his +/-? Rookie Chase Budinger? Don't tell me its Carl Landry when you've been insisting that Luis Scola is the better of the two this whole time.

Top 30 players in the league in On/Off +/- (at least 30% of team's minutes played). I see a lot of really good, impact players on this list. If it was as random and "worthless" as people claim, that would not be the case.

       player              Team      OffNet    DefNet     OvrlNet
1      Durant, Kevin       OKC       +13.7     -3.8       +17.5
2      Wade, Dwyane        MIA       +16.7     +1.1       +15.6
3      James, LeBron       CLE       +16.4     +1.3       +15.1
4      Bryant, Kobe        LAL       +10.7     -4.2       +14.9
5      Horford, Al         ATL       +9.0      -5.7       +14.6
6      Varejao, Anderson   CLE       +8.0      -5.6       +13.7
7      Smith, Josh         ATL       +8.4      -5.2       +13.6
8      Andersen, Chris     DEN       +5.9      -7.7       +13.6
9      Nowitzki, Dirk      DAL       +6.2      -5.4       +11.5
10     Gasol, Marc         MEM       +7.7      -2.6       +10.4
11     Wallace, Ben        DET       +1.8      -8.5       +10.3
12     Stuckey, Rodney     DET       +2.2      -7.9       +10.2
13     Gay, Rudy           MEM       +9.3      -.6        +9.9
14     Marion, Shawn       DAL       +5.1      -4.7       +9.8
15     Deng, Luol          CHI       +6.5      -3.1       +9.6
16     Paul, Chris         NOH       +5.7      -3.8       +9.5
17     Watson, C.J.        GSW       +1.7      -7.3       +9.0
18     Dampier, Erick      DAL       +2.0      -6.7       +8.7
19     Hibbert, Roy        IND       +2.8      -5.8       +8.6
20     Lowry, Kyle         HOU       +4.0      -4.5       +8.5
21     O'Neal, Jermaine    MIA       +6.3      -2.1       +8.4
22     Camby, Marcus       LAC       +2.5      -5.7       +8.2
23     Allen, Ray          BOS       +6.9      -1.3       +8.2
24     Howard, Dwight      ORL       +6.9      -1.3       +8.2
25     Williams, Deron     UTA       +10.6     +2.4       +8.2
26     Bogut, Andrew       MIL       +3.3      -4.6       +7.8
27     Perkins, Kendrick   BOS       +4.2      -3.3       +7.5
28     Garnett, Kevin      BOS       +2.2      -5.3       +7.5
29     Richardson, Quentin MIA       +6.7      -.6        +7.3
30     Sessions, Ramon     MIN       +.4       -6.8       +7.2

 

I'm not interested in dissing Aaron Brooks either. But it is perfectly legitimate to bring up +/- to back up Lowry's "game changingness." That's all I'm saying.

 

I know you didn't. But others have, and they aren't using the +/- stat to talk about his effect on the game. I mean, the original use of it in THIS thread was pissing on Brooks talking about how much Lowry's +/- has improved this year and why he should be more deserving of any Rocket of MIP.

BTW Durvasa, I meant that winning by itself was a worthless stat to judge a player's talent. Heck, check how many Super Bowl MVPs get big paydays only to generally suck when they get to the new team.

 

No, it's really not, and pointing out that some good players have good +/- does not change that. Plenty of other good players have bad +/- ratings. And many bad players have good +/- ratings.

And yes, winning is a worthless way to judge individual talent, because basketball is a team sport. Winning is, however, a good way to judge team talent!