you know, i can understand praying that the economy be taken away from the influence of greed. i still don't agree with praying from the economy, we'll just have to agree to disagree
It's not contrived - I'm being very sincere. I suppose that's accurate. I'm intolerant of hypocrisy. I'm not interested in arguing the philosophical or historical merits of one particular passage you've chosen from the old testament. For the sake of amusement though, I'll post a few more parts of that chapter... The bible says a lot of things. When are you going to sell all your possessions and give them to the poor? Now you're the one CONTRIVING. There is nothing wrong with it, if the context is appropriate. The issue I am having is in the implication, and the not-so-subtle ideology that it devolves from. There are far more important things to pray for - why choose this one weird aspect? And for goodness sake, why pray at a GIANT BULL SCULPTURE? Nice. It's a "fad"... I bite my tongue.
You sure love to throw that word around. What exactly is hypocritical about this? The bible never says Christians must sell all their possessions and give them to the poor. What it says is that we must put God first, and then other things will be added to us, and the story you are referring to is illustrative of that. The only implication there is one you have manufactured out of your intolerance for basic Christian beliefs. The bull sculpture is supposed to be representative of the strength of America's financial markets and economic system, but it is also a symbol of the excessive greed that has driven it for so long. You may not understand the spiritual principles behind using it as a point of contact for prayer, but you expose your bigotry by ridiculing it. The day in which we Christians in America lose our freedom to pray is the day America loses its soul. The founders of this nation first came here so they would be free from religious persecution. A couple of centuries later, we're suffering the same intolerance here at home. Nice. It's a "fad".[/QUOTE]
I think what we have is just a semantic disagreement here -- that's exactly what is being prayed for, that the economy can be taken away from the influence of greed so that the nation can be healed.
Well objectively, the purpose of "healing" the economy would be to restore wealth and income. Not exactly a high priority for jesus. Of course, there are good things that can come of this - which is why I disclaimered the previous post. Obviously I do not know what the motive was for the people involved - but I don't think it outrageous to think the idea a tad absurd. Now you are REALLY contriving. I seem to have trouble recalling the passage instructing christians to pray at giant bull statues for world economies. Of course, that's a daffy comparison to something jesus himself recommended... kind of like, oh I don't know, praying for the economy as somehow indicative of putting "god first" - or acting like "adding things to us" is remotely in the interest of a god that advocated giving your possessions away and decried the difficulty of a rich man getting into heaven. Please... WRONG. My intolerance is for FALSE christians, who feel obliged to wrap their selfish ignorance in the guise of "god". Even the most ardent critics of my anti-religion sentiments on this message board will tell you that. I'm bigoted for ridiculing prayer at a bull statue?.... riiiiiiight. Pray all you want. I don't care. But please lay off the "persecuted chrisitan in america" nonsense. It's flat out ridiculous.
Ummm..we're an empire in this country. The wealth is ridiculous. It's enormous, relative to a large part of the rest of the world. If you're a Christian, you're closer to an alien than an American...akin to Daniel in Babylon. God calls over and over and over again for people to concern themselves more with being a blessing than seeking a blessing for themselves...I think we have a huge responsibility to turn this wealth and advantage out for the benefit of others. Even our enemies...GASP!!! This whole discipleship stuff turns out to be pretty difficult stuff. To model the church in Acts 2 would be a good start. But the imagery of praying with hands on the bull is killing me. MadMax faints.
I think the difficulty people are having is that they see the bull and they think of the story of the Israelites worshiping the golden calf, and make it seem like the Christians are "praying for the bull" or worse "praying to the bull". In fact they're doing the opposite: the bull represents the greed and wickedness that is responsible for all the disaster we've seen, and the prayer is for God to replace it with a new "lion's market" that is fair, just and prosperous. It's always difficult to try to explain a spiritual concept in a secular setting, but it just really irritated me to see all these people expose their intolerance for the Christian faith by piling on with mocking and ridicule. Again: I am still amazed that people can honestly find it reasonable to mock and ridicule Christians who are praying for healing and restoration. You don't believe in God, you don't believe in prayer, fine. Just denigrate us because we do. This is the very definition of religious intolerance.
I'm with MM on this one. Even from my non-religious viewpoint, it kills me inside to see good people of faith lose their way like this... I wish Jeopard's conjecture about their ideals were true, but sadly I think that is not the case. I also think he's pulling an undeserved victim card here, you know that most people are hating the players, and not the game. If you want to take it personally, and generalize everything, that's your own deal. This kind of stuff really embitters more to the faith than brings in... no one who is rich in faith and spirit should ever be praying to a governmental entity for economic salvation... the sacreligious tinge just makes your brain hurt.
I'm trying to follow Jesus, so I'm there with you on the whole believer thing. Let me get one thing out of the way...we're freaks. Seriously. If your interest in following Jesus goes beyond just showing up on Sundays and paying dues, you're kinda strange. I'm good with that. I'm comfortable in that outfit. I relish it, actually...which is interesting because that's changed in me. So I expect to be made fun of some. I'll call DaDa out for it here, because I think he's smarter than he gives himself credit for. But out and about in the real world, I expect it. I even expect it...and maybe get it the most...from people who call themselves Christians. If it is as you say, I'm good with it. If it's about rooting out greed...and asking God to rid us of that...and particularly if it's introspective and asks God to remove it from US...then I'm great with that. But I think we should probably be smarter than to pray around a golden calf. That just gives me the heebie jeebies. That didn't work out real well, before One last thing...be careful what you ask for...you just might get what God thinks is "just" and "fair." And then you find yourself reminded of just how hard it is to really follow.
This is what I mean -- this is a complete misunderstanding and misrepresentation. They are *not* praying to the bull.
I know they do not think the bull has some magic healing powers. But ask yourself this, what is the point of the bull in this prayer?
The most absurd thing to me is that people actually think prayer can have any effect on the external world.
I believe it can... but even if you're right, if it changes me and how I act, that changes the external world.
Location, Location, Location. Christians pray for all kinds of things, and the economy is surely a very important part of all of our lives. Do it like "See You at the Pole". Find a place to meet, but dont let the meeting point supercede the reason for meeting. Pray on a street corner, outside a building, in an office, whatever. Not in front of what can be construed as something Christians are supposed to be against(idols). Also, folks who dont understand why God would care about anything so-called superficial dont understand Him.
...What gets me though, is that people are praying to God to rescue the economy. I am Christian, but there's a limit....we can all accept the current market turmoil as human-made. We are all responsible for it on different degrees (direct or indirect); those who took refi, those who gave credit to just about everyone, those who accepted credit just to further their personal wealth without earning it...this is our responsibility. We must accept the suffering that comes from this, whether we want to or not. To me this feels like a little kid who pedals down a street with his hands up in the air and then crashes; while they're in pain, they keep on asking God to cure the pain and wonders why there is pain at all...pain is a living experience. It tells you when something is not done right. So hopefully, given the circumstances, the next time we bike with the market, our hands will not be in the air.
