A read for JVG; Morey - Fewer Minutes = Greater Success

pgabriel · Mar 26, 2007

meh said:

I think this criticism of JVG is more apt 2 years ago, when our lack of depth required heavy minutes from our top players, especailly T-Mac. But this year, JVG has been much better at resting his starters, Alston being the exception. Battier and T-Mac usually log ~35 minutes. Hayes and Howard pretty much split time at PF, making both pretty fresh. Head and Synder don't log a lot of time, and now Deke is back to his backup role again.
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the other reason it mattered two years ago is because bobby sura's knee was bone on bone and wesley and barry were getting older by each minute of each game.

agentkirb · Mar 26, 2007

jump shooter said:

JVG even tried to win as many games as he could last year at the end of the season, even though we were lottery bound. That cost the rockets Brandon Roy who is a legit 3rd option that the rockets don't have.
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A coach that is actually trying to win games? BLASPHEMY I TELL YOU!!!

Desert Scar · Mar 26, 2007

Almu said:

How you guys say that Riley doesn't use his players like Gundy does is crazy. The man INVENTED the 7-8 man rotation. Riley is known for riding with his stars especially in the playoffs.
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This isn't the reality of his last two years teams. Wade is the only player on the whole team breaking 32MPG for either this year or last year. None of the most accomplished coaches (PJ, Riley, Pop) have Rafer or Battier type role players anywhere near 35MPG. Popovich doesn't even have his stars play that much, and PJ and Riley only have their stars play that much (a 85% star may still be far better than replacements). Clearly all three believe they get more bang spreading around minutes of non-stars to keep them as fresh as possible. JVG and MDA are different in that regard, but at least MDA isn't demanding great defensive effort of the guys out there, which is more tiring.

Also, this discussion by Morey is right on, we have had discussion already here about 2-3 weeks ago. And some like Sam F, disagreeing, but these issues are nothing new.

This is an issue I looked at before....
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=125749&page=6&pp=20&highlight=riley

Desert Scar said:

Riley isn't playing role players real high minutes. Nor is Phil J. Their stars play a lot, but neither team has Battier or Alston type players playing 37 MPG. Pop doesn't even have his stars (Duncan at 34.5, Parker at 33, Manu at 28) play that many. Deke is also playing his highest since 2003.

Pop's highest role player MPG is Bowen at 31. For Miami it is Haslem at 32 (last year it was JW at the same). Phil J played Walton at 33 this year (Smust at 31) and Smush at 34 last year.

This year LAL has 10 guys averging 15+ more MPG (14 over 10MPG). SA has 9 (12 over 10MPG). Mia has 11 (13 over 10MPG). The Rockets have 9 over 15MPG (11 over 10MPG). Further, many of these guys are young players and/or scrubs (Udriah, Vaugne, Bonner, Vujacic, Wright, Doleac, Quinn)--not the quality of player of Snyder for instance.

Looking at the MPG to role players and/or minutes handed out to the far end of the bench if ya'll can't see JVG is pushing his role players harder (SB and Alston in particular with 37MPG) and is tighter in his rotations than these other elite coaches I don't know what to tell you. Further I understand SB and Alston are better at their positions than alternatives, but with either Snyder or Bonzi underutilized (both under their career averages) for most of the year (who can directly sub for Battier, or releave Alston's minutes by Head playing more PG and less SG) you had capable NBA players who could have relieved the burden. Replace Snyder/Wells for Battier is not the kind of drop off like subbing anyone for Tmac, Kobe, Wade, etc. Probably get a fresher, better Battier for a more reaosnable level of the minutes he does play (if even just down to 33 or so) and better integration of another NBA capable player (Wells, Snyder).
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http://bbs.clutchfans.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2767026

Desert Scar said:

......Just look Popovich's and Jackson's distribution of minutes, they are not playing role players over 33MPG and they giving some younger or unknown guys more chances to develop roles. In fact Manu, despite having a terrific Roland Ranking (suggest a major drop off when he is out), is only playing 28 minutes so he will be fresh for the playoffs and trying to get other players playing better. As examples for us, Bonzi is playing less minutes than he has in 8 years, Snyder is playing less since midway in his rookie season. Whereas the ancient Deke is playing more than he has in 3 years, and the no spring chickens either Battier and Alston are playing about their highest minutes ever.

And again, I want both Bonzi and Snyder to play. Bonzi did nothing most of last season but was a force in the playoffs. That is enough reason to keep him in the fold. But Snyder has also been a legit player in the NBA and done some good things in his PT. If we gave both more minutes we could 1) rest Tmac and Battier more (save plenty of gas for the playoffs as with Manu for the Spurs), and 2) probably get the subs playing better where it punishes us less to take Tmac and Battier out.

In short, JVG is doing some great things as a coach, but his rotation is shorter than the most accomplished playoff coaches in the game (includes Riley too--where Wade is the only guy over 33MPG). It is quite reasonable to be concerned about it and point it out. Further, I don't want to hear about the Phx case and their short rotation as a counter, they have not won anything in the playoffs and don't spend a lot of energy on defense--a very different and less exterting style than JVG, Riley, PJ, and Popv.
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Desert Scar said:

Finley has been aweful. Still playing. Horry's been almost as bad still playing. Vaughn and Udriah, aweful (comparable to JL3 or VSpan), but get some PT. Further I am quite confident none of Oberto, Elson, Udrih, Bonner and Vaughn would smell a JVG rotation. I grant you Barry is a quality (albet 1 dimensional) sub, but he is really more of a starter (#5 on the team in PT) because Finley has been so bad. This Spurs team really isn't getting quality from their bench. They are giving about 5 guys playing worse than Snyder more PT than Snyder. They also have a huge dropoff with Manu or Duncan out, every bit as much as us without Yao and Tmac, but keeping their minutes less than role players for the Rockets (Rafer, Battier).

Jackson is doing the same thing too. Getting Farmar, Turiaf and Vujacic way down on the bench some regular PT with only Kobe and Odom (who was out a lot) near their maximum PT.

Snyder has been available for 3 weeks, hardly used. I really don't think JVG plans to keep Snyder and Wells both into the rotation, and Snyder is out. Big Jake, not used even though Deke is being overspent.

.....Right now we have 9 who can play, possibly 10. But we really are using only 8 and maximing the minutes of 5 of them considering their age (Tmac, Battier, Alston, Howard, Deke). I don't like it with 1/3rd of the regular season left, particularly with come capable guys (Snyder in particular, but somewhat Wells, Hayes, & Head too) who can eat more minutes.

JVG had also expressed to the press commits like he only wants 8 guys to play (any more leads to "role confusion"--how Popv and PJ and Riley handle it I don't know), and that it is in effect either Bonzi or Snyder, and that he is not sure what to do with Bonzi and Battier on the same floor. I don't like it both for seeing who you can count on in the playoffs in a pitch and keeping your core players as fresh as possible for the playoffs. A couple extra wins in the win column is not as important for being fresh and preped for the playoffs.
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A read for JVG; Morey - Fewer Minutes = Greater Success

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