Timing, The examples of blacks not being enrolled in the top schools means nothing. Are blacks enrolling to those schools at percenages equal (ratio wise) to white? You also ignored the rest of the schools. Like I said, there are predominately black school and white schools. I would like to see the numbers for the Texas and the nation as a whole. And are black running for Senate and other offices at percentages equal (again, ratio wise) to whites? If they're not, that would help explain the lack or representation in the Senate. I see Jackson showing up when racism occurs. But I also see him showing up over some technicality and he calls it racism. Jesse Jackson does defend some legitmate claims of racism but he also shows up and creates a big deal out of little comments such as the one in question on this board. Gotta go to class. I have given you examples. That's what you asked for. Sorry the ones I gave aren't good enough for you. Your's aren't good enough for me.
So what exactly do you all think is so naive about me? That I'm young and still have formulating ideas about the world? Just because I don't have your same point of view on everything does not mean that I am too naive to see it. It most cases, I do see where you all are coming from. I don't address it because I don't need to. It's true. And I'm stating very generalized issues. It's naive of you to think that I view every thing I see in the world the exact same way. I didn't look at the James Byrd case through rose colored glasses. I knew what it was about and how bad at was and how things like that are terrible and should never happen. I think that both sides in Israel are right and wrong. It does not mean I view every world conflict like this. I know a lot about that situation (more than I did just a few weeks and days ago) and formed my opinion. I am naive about a lot of things. But I am not so naive to think that every case is exactly the same. And I also am not naive enough to think I am always right and have all the answers. I apply what I know and what I see and hear and take it all into consideration. I am naive in that I probably pay more attention to things that support my ideas, but that is in part human nature. No where in here, that I recall, have I said that something is true 100% of the time, hands down, no questions asked. I have said some things are true, but nothing is totally true all of the time. I don't want you to all take this opportunity to bash me, although I'm sure some will. I just want you to understand that I understand too. That's all I guess. I'll post on this subject as long as everyone else wants to as well. RM95-I think you're jealous (just kidding of course)
Do you live in some bizarro parallel universe or something? How in the hell is 1/4 representation irrelevant? By the way that's genius about how blacks aren't running for the Senate at the same ratio as whites, I wonder why the hell that is Princess? I feel like I'm in a episode of All in the Family sometimes when you say this stuff. And you are so right about Jesse Jackson showing up every time some white guy says he doesn't like black chicks. Jesse is the busiest man alive. You haven't given me squat but ridiculous and completely exagerrated nonsense.
Aha.... I'm a PC aggressive MF'er and you're one of the few people living in a former Confederate state who doesn't know of any racists.
Timing, Who the HECK cares how many whites or blacks or hispanics or indians, or pakastanis are in congress? I would hope that laws being made are not based on race. We have to GET past this skin color thing as a way of measurement in any sense. WTF difference does someone's skin color make? Zero, nada, squat, that's what. Let Racism die the loney death that it deserves. DaDakota
<B>Sexual preference is neither learned nor inherited, is what she meant to say. </B> How was the original statement wrong? I would think sexual preference IS either inherited or learned. We don't really know which, but its either a choice (learned / nurture / environment) or not a choice (inherited / nature / genetics), or some combination, no?
Hey yeah, who cares especially when you're white and you're up 98-2. Obviously I don't expect you to care but if you have no representation then you care. What difference does skin color make? I dunno why is it 98-2 then? I guess it makes a pretty big difference doesn't it? You want me to "let racism die" as if you think it only exists where I point it out. How do figure that man? When racism dies I'll quite obviously not be able to point it out.
You know, DaDakota, we've joked with each other on here and talked Rockets trash in chat, etc. and I have absolutely nothing against you as a person, from what I can see on this bbs anyway. I used to hold the same opinion as you in previous "racism" threads on this bbs. I battled with Rocket River and maybe Timing as well (I don't remember) in another hotly debated thread, and was a proponent of your stance to the best of my recollection. Then 9/11 happened. To that point, I had hardly ever experienced racist, bigotted, discriminatory comments. I had experienced some, but, nothing to the extent I experienced afterwards. Especially in the workplace. I thought gr8-1's comment about it being an eye opener was dead on. I personally think I was absolutely wrong in several positions I took in that earlier argument with Rocket River. I can't remember who in this thread said it, but you really can't understand it unless you feel it firsthand. You can't say it will go away if you ignore it, because it festers and breeds if you ignore it. Anyway, I still have no animosity towards any race and doubt I ever will, but I'm wary. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not naive. As gr8-1 said, it was an eye-opener. I saw the absolute worst in America come out soon after 9/11 and it was tough to say "I support America" with the garbage I kept getting hit with daily, but I did, I do, and I will.
Timing- I didn't say that the enrollment at UT and A&M were insignificant. I said meaningless because you're only looking at two schools. But you're only looking at a portion. Did you check enrollment at TSU and U of H? Did you check enrollment for colleges in the nation? Most colleges will have a white majority because whites are the majority. Did you look at the numbers of blacks that applied to UT and A&M or any other university for that matter? TSU currently has 7016 blacks (93%)enrolled and 179 whites. At U of H blacks make up 14.9% and whites make up 40%. In both of those cases, blacks are enrolled in college in numbers EXCEEDING their percentage of the general population. You say that I can't dismiss your two examples but that's exactly what you'll do to mine. But just in case, I'll give you some more. THe University of Alabama-Birmingham has a black enrollment of 30%. U. of N. Carolina-Greensboro has a black enrollment of 19%. Might I add that these are both southern states. Mississippi State has 20%, Rutgers has 21%, U. of Bridgeport has 27%, Georgia State has 35%, Temple has 28%, and these are just a few. Go ahead and dismiss them all if you want. The Senate example is insignificant. We do not live in a soceity of Proportional Representation. We live with the Majority Rules representation. Under this system, minorities are underrepresented. You will probably see this as whites trying to oppress minorities. However, this was written into the Constitution with the assumption that only white landowning males would be able to vote. So you can't say this is about oppression of blacks because the Founding Fathers didn't even think of them as eligable. The mayor of the city of Houston is a black man. The majority of Houston is white. You want to complain about no representation in the Senate, I will point directly to my mayor. Whites are not represented by our mayor. We outnumber the black population but we don't have any representation in the Mayoral office. If you think this is a ludicrus claim, then you need to reexamine your Senate example. And Timing, why does a black person automatically fairly and truthfully represent all black people? Why can I vote for a man who might represent my ideas and views more than a women in the same election? But black people don't feel represented by anyone outside of their race? I don't believe that the ideas of black Americans will be ignored simply because there are no black people in the Senate. Do you want an example of black people discriminating against white? Here it goes, although you'll dismiss it again. Did you know that the best way to tell how a person will vote was by their party identification? Well, the only better way to tell how someone will vote is by race. The race card trumps the party card for minorities. It has been proven that blacks vote for blacks, and every political scientist I've encountered will agree (and I am in the process of gaining actual numbers but have had no luck as of yet). Black people identify themselves with a black candidate, which tells me that they do not care about the issues. They are being racist by discriminating against the white candidate. All while you're still complaining about Senator, I'll still talk about women not having equal representation (although I don't think we need them as long as my representative represents me). Women make up the MAJORITY of the population. And we only have 13% representation on the national level and only about 20% at state and local. However, we make up 52% of the population. The blacks are in the minority and they make up the minority in national government. Women are the MAJORITY and make a small dent in the national government. Do you get that? You want fair representation in the Senate, you better start voting for a hell of a lot more women. But gender and race shouldn't matter in elections. Vote for someone because you share the same ideas about the issues.
I have generally ignored this thread, but one post intrigued me. DoD, I have noticed the change in your views here. I remember when you were a little more of the "drop it and it will go away" attitude. I also remember finding that a little curious at the time. Anyway, I am sorry you have had to change your opinions (due to what has changed them).
Originally posted by Princess Timing- I didn't say that the enrollment at UT and A&M were insignificant. What you said is that it meant nothing. Your exact words. I said meaningless because you're only looking at two schools. Hands down the two largest and most well known schools in the state. Probably 90,000 students combined and over 12 times the size of TSU. But you're only looking at a portion. Did you check enrollment at TSU and U of H? Universities obviously not on par with UT and A&M. Did you check enrollment for colleges in the nation? Most colleges will have a white majority because whites are the majority. That's a brilliant assessment yet doesn't explain why blacks are under represented at UT and A&M. Did you look at the numbers of blacks that applied to UT and A&M or any other university for that matter? Totally irrelevant. TSU currently has 7016 blacks (93%)enrolled and 179 whites. That's wonderful. Why don't we go find out the numbers and ratios of predominantly black universities like TSU that were created precisely because they were not allowed into predominantly white colleges. More brilliant stuff from you. At U of H blacks make up 14.9% and whites make up 40%. In both of those cases, blacks are enrolled in college in numbers EXCEEDING their percentage of the general population. So what you're saying is that while blacks are under represented by 75% at the two largest universities in Texas that they're over represented by 10% at U of H? I definitely see your point. I guess all those white people are just at UT and A&M huh? You say that I can't dismiss your two examples but that's exactly what you'll do to mine. When TSU and U of H are the largest schools in the state and are of similar quality then you'll not be dismissed. But just in case, I'll give you some more. THe University of Alabama-Birmingham has a black enrollment of 30%. U. of N. Carolina-Greensboro has a black enrollment of 19%. Might I add that these are both southern states. Mississippi State has 20%, Rutgers has 21%, U. of Bridgeport has 27%, Georgia State has 35%, Temple has 28%, and these are just a few. Go ahead and dismiss them all if you want. Okay, I will dismiss them... boy will I DISMISS them. Here is a list from US World Report of the top 50 public universities in the US. 1. University of California–Berkeley black enrollment - 4% 2. University of Virginia - black enrollment - 10% 3. University of Michigan–Ann Arbor - black enrollment - 8% 4. Univ. of California–Los Angeles - black enrollment - 4% 5. U. of North Carolina–Chapel Hill - black enrollment - 11% 6. College of William and Mary (VA) - black enrollment - 5% 7. Univ. of California–San Diego - black enrollment - 1% 8. Univ. of Wisconsin–Madison - black enrollment - 2% 9. U. of Illinois–Urbana-Champaign - black enrollment - 7% 10. Georgia Institute of Technology - black enrollment - 8% University of California–Davis - black enrollment - 3% University of California–Irvine - black enrollment - 2% 13. University of Washington - black enrollment - 3% 14. Pennsylvania State U.–University Park - black enrollment - 4% 15. Texas A&M Univ.–College Station black enrollment - 2% Univ. of California–Santa Barbara - black enrollment - 3% University of Texas–Austin - black enrollment - 3% 18. University of Georgia - black enrollment - 6% 19. University of Florida - black enrollment - 8% Univ. of Minnesota–Twin Cities - black enrollment - 4% 21. Ohio State University–Columbus - black enrollment - 8% Purdue Univ.–West Lafayette (IN) - black enrollment - 3% Univ. of Maryland–College Park - black enrollment - 14% 24. Rutgers–New Brunswick (NJ) - black enrollment - 8% University of Delaware - black enrollment - 6% University of Iowa - black enrollment - 2% Virginia Tech - black enrollment - 4% 28. Indiana University–Bloomington Miami University–Oxford (OH) Michigan State University SUNY–Binghamton Univ. of California–Riverside Univ. of California–Santa Cruz University of Colorado–Boulder University of Connecticut 36. Univ. of Missouri–Columbia 37. Iowa State University North Carolina State U.–Raleigh 39. Clemson University (SC) SUNY College Environmental Science and Forestry University of Arizona University of Kansas University of Pittsburgh 44. Auburn University (AL) University of New Hampshire Univ. of Tennessee–Knoxville University of Vermont 48. Florida State University University of Alabama Univ. of Massachusetts–Amherst From a total a list of 249 major universities in the country this is where your list of schools fared from 4 tiers of grading. 2nd tier schools from your list - Rutgers, hardly a southern school. 3rd tier schools from your list - Alabama-Birminghan, North Carolina-Greensboro, Mississippi State, Temple which isn't southern unless Philly is southern now 4th tier schools from your list - Georgia State, TSU, University of Houston It's awfully nice of you to cherry pick some universities around the country to try to boost your obviously incorrect assessments but the schools you mentioned aren't exactly anywhere near UT's or A&M's neighborhood of quality. The better question as to what % of blacks are attending college nationally would be what % of blacks are attending non-predominantly black colleges around the country. Obviously a school like TSU which you use to boost your bogus argument isn't anywhere near the overall quality of a school like UT or A&M. I did you the favor of listing black enrollment for the top 25 of the schools above and as you can clearly see all but one of the unversities is under representing blacks. In fact I'll go one further and list the stats for the top 10 private colleges in the country. 1) Princeton - black enrollment - 7% 2) Harvard - black enrollment - 8% 3) Yale - black enrollment - 8% 4) California Institute of Technology - black enrollment - 1% 5) MIT - black enrollment - 6% Stanford - black enrollment - 9% Penn - black enrollment - 6% 8) Duke - black enrollment - 10% 9) Columbia - black enrollment - 8% 10) Dartmouth - black enrollment - 6% Who needs Dartmouth when you can go to Georgia State? The Senate example is insignificant. We do not live in a soceity of Proportional Representation. We live with the Majority Rules representation. Under this system, minorities are underrepresented. You will probably see this as whites trying to oppress minorities. However, this was written into the Constitution with the assumption that only white landowning males would be able to vote. So you can't say this is about oppression of blacks because the Founding Fathers didn't even think of them as eligable. You can't see this as oppression of blacks because the Founding Fathers were too racist to think of blacks as people? LOL Geez... that's pretty funny. It's also funny that you say under this system that minorities are under represented yet the other day you pointed out that women make up 52% of the population yet are under represented in the Senate. There goes your whole theory I guess. The mayor of the city of Houston is a black man. The majority of Houston is white. You want to complain about no representation in the Senate, I will point directly to my mayor. Whites are not represented by our mayor. We outnumber the black population but we don't have any representation in the Mayoral office. If you think this is a ludicrus claim, then you need to reexamine your Senate example. Ah, but blacks don't make up the MAJORITY of people in POWER. Your lists of race related grievances is in no way, shape, or form consistent with that of African-Americans. You're trying to insinuate that whites need city representation when they have all kinds of representation in all seats of power. The President is white, the Vice-President is white, the Speaker of the House is white, the Governor is white, both Senators are white, the County Commissioner is white, if you live in Sugarland as I think you stated previously then the last time I checked Tom Delay is white. When the President, Vice-President, Speaker of the House, the whole Senate, the Governor, and County Commissioner are all black then we'll revisit your need for a white mayor to suit your needs of representation. In fact I'm sure the black community wouldn't think twice about trading you Lee Brown for the list above. And Timing, why does a black person automatically fairly and truthfully represent all black people? He doesn't. In the last election blacks voted overwhelmingly for Al Gore despite the likelihood that Colin Powell was going to be tapped as Secretary of State. In the last vote for Houston mayor hispanics voted for Lee Brown over Orlando Sanchez, not sure of the figures however. Why can I vote for a man who might represent my ideas and views more than a women in the same election? But black people don't feel represented by anyone outside of their race? We have yet to have a black President and as I pointed out above blacks voted overwhelmingly for Bill Clinton and Al Gore. They would seem to qualify as someone representing out of their own race. I don't believe that the ideas of black Americans will be ignored simply because there are no black people in the Senate. A very naive statement. Do you want an example of black people discriminating against white? Here it goes, although you'll dismiss it again. Did you know that the best way to tell how a person will vote was by their party identification? Well, the only better way to tell how someone will vote is by race. The race card trumps the party card for minorities. It has been proven that blacks vote for blacks, and every political scientist I've encountered will agree (and I am in the process of gaining actual numbers but have had no luck as of yet). Black people identify themselves with a black candidate, which tells me that they do not care about the issues. They are being racist by discriminating against the white candidate. LMAO Oh man... are you serious? Blacks voting for blacks are discriminating against whites? Geeeeez... since when was personal preference on voting issues considered discriminatory? So when Exxon encourages it's employees to vote for George Bush over Al Gore because Bush is an oil guy they're committing discrimination? How about campaign contributions? When labor unions campaign for Democratic candidates who they identify with are they discriminating? When women campaigned for Hillary Clinton were they discriminating? All while you're still complaining about Senator, I'll still talk about women not having equal representation (although I don't think we need them as long as my representative represents me). Women make up the MAJORITY of the population. And thus have the POWER to vote any woman into office at any time. Blacks make up 13% of the population not 52%. Blacks have no representation in the Senate, none. Zero, nada, zilch. And we only have 13% representation on the national level and only about 20% at state and local. However, we make up 52% of the population. The blacks are in the minority and they make up the minority in national government. Geez... they make up an under represented minority in national government. Particularly the most powerful parts of national government. Women are the MAJORITY and make a small dent in the national government. Why is it that you won't acknowledge racism against blacks but you'll rail on and on about women who make up the MAJORITY? If 52% of the population votes the same they win every time. Do the math. Do you get that? You want fair representation in the Senate, you better start voting for a hell of a lot more women. But gender and race shouldn't matter in elections. Vote for someone because you share the same ideas about the issues. Gender and race shouldn't matter in elections but they obviously do... wake up. My 1,500th post! WOOHOO!! Definitely about 1,350 posts too many for me.
No offense Princess but Timing has made a very good breakdown. I can't wait to see what you'll post as a response, if you even give one.
I understood what you were saying, but as I pointed out there is no set in stone guideline for what is racist. You might not think it is....but maybe someone does. And if they actually are a minority, it might be worth considering. So your statement is nearly impossible to apply, and doesn't really make much of a positive impact regardless. I am under no such impression. People that are racist - to the extreme level - well, there is no real hope for them. But there can be for those who have had some false stereotypes taught to them who can learn how harmful they are. And there are some who maybe don't even realize what they say. (as we apparently have seen on this board before.) If there is some hope of making at least something better, somehow, it's worth the effort. To me, I don't think you can ever be overly conscious of racism. It's unacceptable, and something everyone should try to cure themselves of, though it is in some instances very difficult to do. And remember - I didn't consider this statement racist. Some did, and that's understandable too - for some guys, the idea of simply finding a beautiful girl unattractive because of her race (which is how some took the quote) is simply absurd. Hard for me to argue with that.
Princess: The only argument I would make here is that Mayor Brown is the first African American mayor in the city in its existence. When he was elected (1997), the city had existed for over 100 years. If you want to just go by percentages and take only 100 years in the equation, blacks should have represented Houston in at least 18 years of those 100 (blacks represent about 18 percent of the city). In fact, he will manage only 6. And that doesn't even take into account Hispanics who have now overtaken anglos in the city of Houston in terms of percentage. Not a single Hispanic mayor in the history of the city of Houston. Sorry, Timing. This one is way off. Hispanics overwhelmingly voted for Sanchez - something on the order of 75 percent though I don't have the specifics in front of me. African Americans did the same for Brown with 98 percent of them voting for him. Whites were split approximately 60/40 in favor of Sanchez with Asians going about 70/30 in favor of Brown. Princess: Honestly, if you were black and your family had to fight for every basic human right from white people over the course of 200 years, wouldn't you be just a tad bit suspicious? I mean, they are still ignored rather often. It is more widespread than you can imagine. But, for me, it goes beyond simple discrimination. It has more to do with perspective. To make a simple comparison based on gender here, take healthcare. Viagra is now covered by most major health insurance plans yet only a small percentage of them cover birth control. The vast majority of the CEO's of major corporations (including drug companies) are old white men. They are interested in things that concern them. Sometimes, it isn't a case of purposely discriminating or oppressing but just not really knowing or understanding the issues. How can a 60-year-old wealthy white man who lives in the suburbs understand the issues facing a poor black girl growing up in an inner city neighborhood? I, personally, don't see racist conspiracy as much as I see relevance at work. Since issues that face the average young black person are not relavent to the average old white person, it is hard to imagine they would even realize there was a problem let alone know how to address it. The only way to bridge that gap is to get people in there who do recognize the problem and have ideas on how to solve it, particularly when those who are struggling have no voice in the government that creates the laws and programs that directly effect them.
I know. I was almost 180 degrees opposite in my views seemingly a few months before 9/11. I have no idea whether or not I'm wrong, but I know my feelings on the matter have changed and changed drastically. The one thing that I never realized back then was something I think Rocket River said that if you don't experience it, you have no clue what it means. I've experienced it, I now know what it means, hence the change in my beliefs. But as I said, I have no idea whether I'm right or wrong... I'm simply reacting.
One of the best posts I've read in a long time. Jeff, I think you'd fit the bill here. If you ran for office, I'm sure the clutchcity constituents would support you.
