glynch, Thanks again for the support. Most of the professors here are at least democratic (which is pretty liberal to me). I'm not looking for conservatives or liberls. I take classes I want to take. That's all! But thank you for the advice. If you want to say that the statement was racist because it involved discriminating against a race (even though it was only based on preference and not a hatred of the race or a feeling of superiority) fine. It makes me mad though when people become defensive though for innocent remarks like the one in question. Racism has such a negative connotation (and I think it should stay that way). Racism remarks have always meant hate and prejudice to me and probably others. If you're applying it to such innocent comments as this then how do we label the truly racist remarks and actions? This guy made a racist comment to many of you. Someone could say "all blacks are sub-human and deserve to die" and that would be racist too. I don't think these two statements deserve the same label. I save the racist label for things that truly are racist in nature and intent. Stereotypes are not always a bad thing. Stereotypes and generalizations are used to make things easier on us. There is too much information in the world for us to be able to adequately process it all. Stereotypes help us funnel information out. If I don't like big noses and I attach that to one race more than another, it's a funneling process. If I said white people can't dance, would you call that racist? I wouldn't. It's a generalization and stereotype. No big deal. All I can still say is that racism is really about hatred and prejudice against a race of people.
(I'm jumping in a little late here today, but...) glynch: Wow. I agree with your statements (most of them) again. This is like the third time that's happened... That Tyra Banks picture certainly does say it all. HayesStreet: I can see your point here, but I really think that the occasional idiotic racist comment is not that big of a deal. I disagree with you that these types of statements are the bigger issue; a pervasive racist mindset is far more threatening, IMO. The occasional minor comment like this isn't too important IMO because: 1) policy is not determined by such screw-ups, 2) it really does not do much at all to spread racism, and 3) it does not have a tendency to make anyone violent. The Klan, Aryan Nation, Cristian Identity, etc - they are far the greater threat because they actually want to set policy, spread racism, and commit violence where they deem it appropriate. Lil Pun's friend, I am assuming, wants none of these things. Is it insensitive? Yes. Does it have any impact on anything, except for limiting this guy's potential bed-notch count? No. And frankly, what if black women really just don't do anything for the guy? It is most likely that this is the case, not that he actually has anything against black people. If they don't give him a stiffy, his loss. It's probably not something he can help, anyway. Now, if he said "Never give a black man a white man's job", or "Balck people are all crack dealers", or "Black women are too b****y", or something like that - that's a little more serious than "Black women just don't turn me on". If I say "Fat women don't do it for me", am I a fat-o-phobe? No, it does not mean that I do not like fat people, it means that fat ladies do not turn me on. If I say "That guy'd better not try to grab my ass", does that mean that I hate gay people? No, it means that they just really don't turn me on. Sexual preference isn't something we have alot of control over, anyway. That's why in my first post in this thread I asked if this guy had said anything else that could be considered racist. If he had, then he might definitely be a racist, but if not, then he likely is not. In general, racism is a pattern of thought; one odd idiotic comment does not a racist make.
What difference does 'intent' make? That is insane. What is truly racist? It is a judgement based soley on someones race. Since we know, or at least some of us do, that everyone is different, it is illegitimate to base a decision soley on race. Whether you 'mean to' be racist or not is irrelevant. And no less harmful, and no less repugnant. Like what? Blondes are dumb, blacks are lazy, irish are drunks, italians are mobsters, polish are stupid, indians are smelly...Yeah, these are great things to have around. A stereotype is an opinion of someone that is unchanging. It doesn't recognize that things change or that things are different or that generalizations can be wrong. Generalizations, yes. 'It is hot in the summer.' 'Americans have a lot of meat in their diets.' Those kinds of generalizations are helpful to process information. Stereotypes, rigid concepts, in this case race based are not helpful. They are ignorant. It is ignorance. It is racist. Do you realize how silly it is for you to say people from one particular race have big noses? It IS a big deal. You are willfully spreading ignorance everytime you spew this crap out of your mouth. Do you think it is true? Everytime you pass someone on campus that has a big nose do you think 'oh hey, there's a Jew?' And WHY do you need to identify Jews as different based on their appearance? Racism is about ignorance. Ignorance breeds hatred. Ignorance breeds a fear of people NOT LIKE US. When you use race to draw lines in your head you are reenforcing fear and ignorance. When you say 'no big deal,' you are saying 'racism is no big deal.' Quite simply, you are wrong.
I may be ignorant on some things and even about races. But I am not so ignorant that I think all stereotypes are true. They're generalizations. They funnel information. Doctors have bad handwriting. I usually ask my nurses to write doctor's orders down for me if I think it's messy. How is that bad? White people can't dance. So if I go to a club and want to dance with a good dancer, I would not automatically look for a white guy. If I happen to see a white guy dancing well, cool. If not, it wouldn't surprise me. How can that be bad? Stereotypes can be dangerous, yes, in the wrong hands. You can't prevent them from falling into the wrong hands unless you get rid of all of them, which I think is incredibally idealistic to think. I don't think you even read half of what I wrote on my last post.
Well, is this guy as big a problem as Mr Skinhead X? No, probably not. Does that make it ok to utter racists statements or judge people based soley on their race? No. Racism will always exist when you make allowances for it. Stop it. What if this guy graduates and moves into public office, or into management at a company? He could very well make more decisions based soley on race. He could have kids and pass on subtle racist ideology without even knowing it. You minimization of racism is startling. The scope matters when considering your reaction. The scope is irrelevant when deciding whether it is right to make racist judgements or NOT. First you assume that small decisions don't lead to larger ones. That is incorrect. People are not born Aryan Nation members. They spend a long time accumulating small racist notions. Eventually ALL of their decisions are made based on these thousands of racist notions. Each by themselves people think are 'not a big deal,' but they build up like arsenic. It doesn't lead to death instantly, but eventually your system accumulates enough to kill you. Racism is the same way. Really. Lil' Pun's other friend was apparently upset. He felt degraded. He felt IMPACT from the words. It impacts YOU. It is one more instance in your life when you turn the other way at someone's racism because its 'only a little' or 'not violent' or whatever. You excuse it now, you'll excuse it later. Again nobody comes out of the womb saying 'blacks are all on crack.' But each time they are exposed to racism, and it goes unchecked, that is one more time they themselves will excuse it. Will turn a blind eye to it. They call that the Beauty Myth. It revolves around the idea that beauty for a woman is to be thin. It causes many eating disorders, which can be fatal. It causes women to get breast implants, tummy tucks, and plastic surgery they don't need. Thousands of surgeries go wrong every year leaving women deformed and crippled. They take diet drugs that destroy their livers. They experience severe depression and a lot of other terrible terrible things. So, yeah, Treeman. That is harmful. But this is not the issue at hand... No it means you fear homosexuals. As if gay men go around grabbing strange dudes on the ass. Fear and hate are first cousins. Maybe you have a fear but can keep it from turning to hate. So although you're a homophobe, you aren't going to get violent. Its still wrong or unfortunate, but the scope is lower than Mr Skinhead X who kills people because they're gay. But what about the guy standing next to you when you make the 'that guy better not grab my ass' statement. Can you be sure your comment doesn't add to HIS fear, and that HIS fear won't result in something larger and more heinous in the future? Uh, what? Please elaborate. Rac-ISM is wrong. It should be rejected in every instance. Period. Should we burn the guy at the stake? No. Well, probably not . Should we condemn a racist statement everytime we hear it? Absolutely. It could even be 'hey man, have you ever thought about what you just said? I don't think that's acceptable in today's world. Racism is wrong. I find that offensive.' Most people would be so embarassed that they would probably think more about what they say in the future. 'No big deal' is ignoring the problem.
I just wanted to say that I like all pretty chicks, but that there is something particularly sexy about pretty black girls...I don't know exactly what it is...perhaps their booties? I find pretty black girls extremely attractive...Was that a racist statement? Oh, and I wanted to make sure that I say BOOBS at least once in this thread .
My, my. We DO agree on something after all. Right, like when you said 'Jews have big noses. I'm sorry, but that's a fact!' The problem is that people who excuse racism as no big deal start to confuse generalizations based on race, which are either grossly exaggerrated or outright false, with fact. As your statement shows. This is not race based. This is irrelevant. How can that be bad? Well, let's try ONE MORE TIME. Making decisions about people you don't know based soley on their race is stupid. People are different. I'll throw you a life preserver, since you're drowning in ingnorance. Try this next time: look and see who is a good dancer, if you are looking for a good dancer, instead of looking at the color of someone's skin... I believe we can express the sentiment that racism is wrong each and everytime we see it. When society at large condemns racist sentiment everytime we hear it, racism will decrease. Since I chopped it all up and responded piece by ignorant piece I find that conclusion to be...misinformed.
The answer is simple...there IS a difference.... "White people have names like Lenny, and Black people have names like Carl."
Oh yeah, I almost forgot this one. Your example form class is not race based, is it? And what's her name? lol...
HayesStreet: When did I say it was OK? I did not. I said it wasn't that big of a deal - as in, "it has no impact upon anything". I didn't even say that you shouldn't chastize the guy for it. But to point the finger and scream "Racist"! Evil!" for it is an overreaction. Racism will exist as long as people perceive racism where none exists. Stop it. What policy decisions is this guy going to make that reflect his "Black women don't give me a stiffy" preference? If he starts turning down black women for positions in his corporation or for government employment, then you call sexual and racial discrimination on the guy. Aside from that... What? Excuse me, but I don't think that sexual preference is either hereditary or learned. I don't think it's a "subtle racist ideology" either - I'm interested in seeing how you categorize it as such? Your propensity to scream "Racism!" at the drop of a hat is startling. Not everything is about race. When did I assume that? I know exactly how it works, which is why I asked if this guy had made any other racist comments. Apparently he has not. He has not acquired a racist pattern of thought, despite the odd comment. Barring that pattern of thought, he is not a racist. Yet you scream racism... Yes, I know. Some people take everything too seriously, take things personally when they are not directed at them, and see smoke where there is no fire. This is the real problem I see here: some people assume racism where none exists. Jesse and Sharpton make their livings off of this. Racism will never die with that mindset constantly accusing people of being racist, when they are not. No, it is exactly the issue at hand: black women don't turn this guy on. Fat women don't turn me on. It does not imply a prejudice - it implies a sexual preference. No, it means that I don't want to be sexually harassed by homosexuals. I have no problem with any homosexual who is not trying to grab my ass. You mearly read fear into it, because it is consistent with the illogical argument you are trying to make here. BTW, it has happened to me before. There's a reason I don't like it. It is an unwanted sexual advance, which last time I checked meant sexual harassment. Not fear or hate. It's a pretty well-accepted psychological theory today that we do not pick and choose our sexual preferences. Gays don't choose to be gays. Some people like fat women for no apparent reason. Earlobes do it for some, boobies for others. We do not pick and choose our sexual preferences. Your willie either responds to a certain stimulus, or it does not. Are you telling me that you have complete penile control? Wow. You'd be mankind's first to be able to tell his prick to rise and fall at your bidding... I agree. And when did I say that you shouldn't tell the person it was insensitive and racist? You do not need to go off the hook every time someone makes an insensitive comment. As you said, tell the person "Uh, dude, that's kinda racist", and he'll probably say "Yeah, I guess. Sorry" and it won't happen again. When you fly off the hook and break out the rope every time someone makes a stupid comment, you only aleinate those whose thoughts you appear to want to control.
First, you didn't address every sentence that I wrote, leaving me to believe you just ignored those parts. Every example is relevent, regardless of what the stereotypes. Why does a stereotype based on race so much worse than one based on hair color, profession or gender? The fact is, stereotypically, Jews have big noses. It is not a fact that they all have them, but they are true to some extent (which is why stereotypes get started to begin with). It's a way to filter out. I do think racism has been broadened too much. Like I said, stereotypes and generalizations are used to funnel information. In my dance example, I would look for the best dancer, but if there are hundreds of people there, I cannot sit an analyse each and every person. I am not going to look exclusively at one race or another. But I know that stereotypically, whites are not considered good dancers. All I'm doing is using it as a funnel. If this guy doens't find black girls attractive, it's not racist. He's funnelling out information. Just like some people might prefer blonds. They're not ruling out anyone, but funnelling information. If brunettes don't do it for him, it's less information for the human mind to deal with. Why does it have to be more than that? Why is making a decision about someone you don't know based on race worse than making it based on hair color, or shoe size, or heigth? None of these are things a person could change. I don't think you give people enough credit. You're assuming that everyone who makes a judgment based on race is going to go join the Klan. Do you think every man who makes a judgment based on sex is going to be a wife beater? I want to know how you can compare what this person said to what Klansmen preach. How can you call them the same thing? I think you're making a bigger deal out of race than Lil Pun's friend was to begin with. Nowhere have I said racism is wrong. That's not the question. The question is what is racist. You implied that Lil Pun's friend was obviously right for getting offended at a statement that you feel was racist. Did it every cross your mind that Lil Pun was right instead for NOT blowing up over the remark. Probably not. I think his friend was overreacting. Lil Pun was right. People like his friend are to quick to label something as racist. If he thinks that guy who said this was a racist, what does he think about the Klan? These two are NOT the same.
If we evolve to that point, I'd definitely agree with you. As far as the quote, I guess I didn't see it that way, particularly because of my own personal outlook that I outlined in previous responses. But we can probably all agree that just the quote alone doesn't really have enough info to say for sure.
Uh...no. Sorry, treeman, no offense meant but that is about as off as any statement I've read in this thread. There have been plenty of good points on both sides, but this isn't one of them. So if people stop pointing out what they find to be racist (particularly when they are of that race), the Klan is going to close up shop? The Black Panther extremists that have been mentione before are going to call it a career? If people stop pointing out the racist mistakes that continue to be made in this society, the only thing that will happen is that those with racist beliefs will feel a little better about themselves. You will never get a defining set of guidelines for what the whole world should consider 'racist'. This board alone proves that. But if someone of a particualr race tells me they are offended by something, that is enough for me to step back and really take a look at the situation.
Ahhh... haha... that's one of the funniest things I've ever heard. Princess with her black racism fuels white racism and treeman gets her back with racism will exist as long as people perceive it's there. That's some classic stuff and pretty sad actually.
Rokkit: Obviously, racism exists here, so you need to call it out. This implication is inconsistent with my statement (I did not say we shouldn't call it out where it does exist) You seem to be under the mistaken impression that you can actually turn a racist into a non-racist by pointing out that he is a racist? That cannot be done. I am talking about calling someone who is not a racist a racist when they make a stupid or insensitive comment or gesture. Yes, point it out to them. But if you fly off the hook and call the person racist - when they know themselves that they are not - you will only aleinate them. If anything, you will make them want to keep on making the stupid "mistakes" they made in the first place - and then you might actually end up with a racist. But calling someone racist who is not one does not help the cause of ending racism. All it does is create an even larger atmosphere of fear and mistrust. I'll agree, that's probably a decent litmus test. But remember that some people get too offended for no good reason... If two people of a different race tell you that you've offended them, then you're probably better off. In this example, one person was offended, and one wasn't. IMO, the one who was offended probably gets offended too easily. The one who wasn't obviously understood that the guy was likely making a reference to a sexual preference, not a racial knock.
Rokkit, I see where your coming from on treeman's statement and I agree with it from your perspective. Let me tell you what I think about it though. I think they are being overly conscious of racism. It is almost like they are looking to pick a fight so to speak. Someone makes an innocent comment, such as this, it could be taken at face value. But by calling it racism, the third person brought the word racism into the conversation. The point I think he was making is that people keep pointing out racism "where none exists." There is no arguement that the Klan is racist. It should be pointed out and dealt with. If Lil Pun's friend had not blown up over the situation, this discussion would not have even happened. So do you see how calling the statement racism can fuel it more? I'm not asking or expecting you to agree. Just offering a way that you might not have thought of. And Timing- I said RACISM FUELS RACISM. Black fuels white and white fuels black. Racism is a cycle.
Princess, that's inane. Racism isn't inherently cyclical. It's a product of oppression. What do we really have against black people? That Hannibal despoiled parts of Rome a few centuries ago? Black/white racism, for the most part, is a product of colonialism and the subsequent slave markets. Black people subsequently became largely underclass... which perpetuated a stereotype... and provoked resentment. Now, certainly, racism can be perpetuated through cyclical actions. But that's not where it comes from, and that's not fundamentally what drives it.
Sexual preference has some genetic pre-dispositions, I have never heard any evidence that racial preference has any genetic pre-dispositions. There is some evidence that most men are most sexually actracted to women with an hour glass figure over those with a pear or apple shape however. It probably boils down to centuries and centuries where women with big hips small waists big boobs tended to be more fertile. Genetically it is advantagous to mix the gene pool, so I would think given equal body shapes opposite race partners would be at least equally attractive--if socialization (cultural, family, peer influences) is taken away. The original statement is offensive and prejudiced. If someone said I don't like hanging around white people because they seem dumb I think many would be offended. Just because often sexual actraction goes a little bit deeper and is a little bit more emotional (versus logical) why should prejudices in this be excused either? I <i> suspect </i> the guy probably has other hangups suggesting that he probably is racist, or minimally he is very, very ignorant and unenlightened (prejudiced). But Like DoD said we really don't know the guy's actions other than his totally ignorant comment. Racists and prejudiced comments shouldn't be ignored--and it is good to me HayesS and Timing are persistant in calling it out, but I think we all agree they are not as bad as racist actions. Still, it is the prejudice beliefs that does set the groundwork for racists actions. One of my Latino friends (I am a White guy) did say one time she could not accept her son dating (and I assume marrying) a White girl when he grew up. I understood her point of view (she was concerned the other person wouldn't understand discrimination or her sons culture--also I think her own discrimination from Whites also played a roll on an emotional level), but over time I corrected her thinking on it and she thinks otherwise now. And to me the case I describe is not as bad as the former--a knee jerk reaction saying Black women are not hot or whatever. Nonetheless, anyone who would not be attracted to someone just because of skin tone AND even those who couldn't accept themself or their children dating another person simply because of skin tone has a lot of work to do about learning about themselves and humanity in my book.
Ah, the many faces of Treeman... 1) The 'I agree it was racist' Treeman. Judging all black women as undesirable because they are black is racist. The decision is based soley on race with no differentiation being made between human beings with massively different physical and psychological and cultural backgrounds. Basing a decision soley on race is racist. What the decision is about (what neighborhood to live in, who to have a relationship with, who to hire, who to talk to) doesn't matter as much as HOW you make that decision. If it is soley based on race, its racism and wrong. 2) The 'It's all a Al Sharpton conspiracy' Treeman As you can see, you blatantly contradict yourself. You've already said it was NOT a conspiracy. Maybe Sharpton DOES make a living off of racial crisis, but we've already agreed this guy should be chastised for his racist utterance. So you don't get to use this argument this time. Oops. 3) The 'You're overreacting - Apologist' Treeman. Racism should be condemned. Why would you ever let a statement or action that you understand to be racist (see #1 if you need your memory refreshed) go without comment? Obviously someone who MAKES a racist statement does not believe, like you do, that racism is wrong. So shouldn't you let them know you're opinion? Or do you believe racism is ok? Please don't go on about how it is not prevalent, as bad as people think etc. - that is irrelevant. IF you think its a racist statement, shouldn't you say its wrong? What's left of your post... 'There is no harm because he's not burning churches down' Treeman Well, if he makes one decision (who to have a relationship) that it generally considered important in his life, the likelihood exists he'll do it in other important areas as well. So the impact can go far beyond his 'stiffy' problem. And for you to assume that the system will surely correct the problem is naive. Do you think everyone who makes a racist decision in policymaking is found out, and removed from the process? Do you think everyone that sexually harasses someone is caught and removed? I don't think you're THAT naive... Look, you can maintain (even though I disagree) that these problems (racism/sexism) are not as prevalent as people think, but surely you're not denying they exist, or that all cases are caught by the system? As I explained above, basing his decision about who he would or would not get into a relationship with based soley on their race is racist. Saying 'I will not have a relationship with a black woman' is racist. I used 'subtle' because the scope, as you point out, is not the same as saying 'hey ******, get in the back of the bus.' He chooses not to have relationships with black women. Why? Because of the color of their skin. That is racist. You choose not to have relationships with fat women. That is not racist. It has nothing to do with their race. It is still harmful, as I detailed with my explanation of the Beauty Myth, which you ignored. But more importantly, your example is irrelevant to the question of racism. Finally a pretty irrelevant discussion about sexual preference. First, if its not hereditary or learned, where does it come from? Aliens implanting things in your head again? Second, you are wrong. The determinant for sexual preference meaning biological preference (ie heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual) is an ongoing debate. Even within psychology they cannot come to a consensus. And that ignores other disciplines which also have something to say about the issue, like genetics. Third, this is the worst excuse yet that you've made for this guy. It ain't his fault cause it comes from nowhere, or thin air.
