I didn't make myself clear enough. I guess the "fine" part is the key. When you say "fine" do you mean that it's "right"? I hope you don't believe that whatever one believes is right. If you really care about a person, you want her to be right, right? If by "fine" you mean "I will not force you to believe what I believe because I respect your right to choose whatever you want for your own life. (But I'll argue with you if you don't mind!)" That, to me, is respect. I totally agree. I too think that "cold turkey evangelism" is kinda distasteful. Yet, you have to realize that if they truly believe what they believe, it's understandable for them to do that. It beats telemarketers telling you to buy something they don't even believe is good.
Thanks for your response, pretty Rimbaud I'm kind of surprised it was worded that way, though. (Seemingly separating logic/science from philosophy) I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that religion was considered philosophy without logic. I do know people that believe as you believe, that they are sufficiently informed to be able to determine what rules are right and wrong. Within my beliefs, I could even make the case that Satan has come to that same conclusion. Contrary to what others may think, I respect your view because, to me, it is the epitome of freewill and choice. (One out of the possible two logical conclusions.) (aside) It's really hard for me to appear apathetic to views such as yours as well as others on the board. I prefer not to derail threads. But know that I am literally dying with concern for you and others whether you think you warrant it or not (/aside)
we do?? here's where we would part ways...i see a stark difference between the Creator and the created.
The wording was intentional. Sure, I incorporate logic and science, but I was just saying that my main argument is not based on "there is no proof" types of arguments that you had already been discussing with others. That is all. As far as Satan goes, you are not alone. Starting with Milton, really, there was a humanization of Satan in radical circles. By the late 18th and in the 19th centuries radicals were promoting Satan in a political, not religious way. The idea was just as you said - Satan made a choice to not be subordinate to rules that he felt were wrong, etc.. He was then a kind of ultimate rebel hero for people who didn't even believe he existed. Well, you don't know me so your concern is left to exist on an abstract level that is neither greater or worse than all of the other non-Christians, right? Don't worry, I have relatives who are concerned about me as well, or who don't believe that I am not a Christian because I am "such a good person" or "seem so spiritually at peace" and they cannot accept that either could happen without Christianity. Oh well.
I try to stay out of these but this response got to me. I have alot of friends who do not believe in anything and I always wonder if there is a GOD {for the sake of this response}, and you stand in front of him one day on the day of judgement, would you be as bold in your convictions? I am not judging anyone and it`s easy to lay down the gauntlet on a computer screen but would you be able to stand there and tell GOD that you are justified in your beliefs because you felt it is wrong. Just curious, I leave everyone to their own beliefs and opinions as my friends often refer to me as "that crazy tongue talking" Pentacostal For the record I was brought up in a home void of any religion or belief and after many years of trying new things and reading alot of material I found a religion that I believe in.
Exactly! I wish we had the late Carl Sagan's input on this matter--a noted atheist if I'm not mistaken--a great mind in either case.
Honest response, I appreciate it. To clarify, I do not see this as a me vs. God thing so I don't have this mental image of me poised defiantly in front of a tyrant God, eyes emblazened with fiery hatred, etc.. If such a day (would it be a "day"?) came to pass I would obviously have to admit to God that I was wrong in not believing in him, but I would stand by my life and my choices that were made with the tools I had at the time. If that was punishable then I would certainly find it unjust and probably think that life (er, afterlife) sucks, but what could I do about it then? Cry, I guess. Finding out that a God exists when I die would not change the life I lived before that, nor will the hypothetical meeting in the future force me to believe in something that I cannot right now. If you are pentecostal, then I know a bit of what you are about. As I said, I have attended all kinds of religious services so I know your faith pretty well (I even beat some pentecostal kids -when I was also a kid - in Bible trivia - haha). Nonetheless, you (and any believer) are foreign to me. I don't reject you or your beliefs, I just cannot fathom it all. All we can do is hope to discuss it civilly.
Fatty, I wonder why people Belive that there IS something else after our current existance. I do actually belive in something. Ackams(SP?) razor. the belief that the simplist explanation is ofen the correct one. Why can we not just die then rot and our atoms become soil that fuels a plant that is eaten by a cow wich is eaten by you? So I guess, maybe, there is life after death, but not in the simple way. My atoms, my collected solar energies are absorbed back into the planet and re allocated to the soil, plants, and animals that benefit from my physical being. So, yes my existance will last beyond my death. I am sure of it! and I am glad this forum exists. I was barely using this site for anything but news anymore http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21256 mad I have good ideas
If I have a child there is a sense in which some part of me is in that child but if I paint a picture the most that can be said is that I leave an impression of my ideas there. Certainly it is not a part of me the way a limb is. It seems to me that mostly it goes in the other direction: created things carry the mark of their creator.
OK, I'll jump back into this for a second. And the reason, I've been noticeably silent recently is that I do respect people's beliefs for the most part. I, in fact, broke up with a woman who thought that anyone who did not believe in Christ was going to hell. My response to her was: "how lucky we must be that our parent's gave us the ONE true belief, while other's who weren't as "blessed" as us (ie. had non-religious parent's) had to find "The Truth" for themselves. I didn't buy it. I felt as long as you led a good life, that God would, for a bazillion reasons, know better. We broke up because of this. I just couldn't envision my friends going to hell because they weren't raised properly. However, just as it is with some of my friends, I sometimes do have to ask why believe in nothing. BJ, as well as other's were offended by my remarks, and that truly was not the original meaning of this thread. That said. With the NASA part: NASA proved the Big Bang theory a few years ago. I believe in 1997-1998. It was in Time Magazine, as well as the front page of the Chronicle. They stated specifically that: The Universe is expanding. However, they were able to definitively state that the Universe is still 99.999% of where it was when it began, and that it was scientifically proven that the Universe Big Bang happened in less than a nanosecond and before that it came from "An infinintessimily small object." To me, if not to other's, this proves the Bible's theory of "Let there be Light!" Again, any non-believer can put their own spin on it, but it makes you think, eh?
Just rewatched the final episode of Dawson's Creek. Michelle Williams performed an amazing monologue where her character is about to die and decides to record a video message for her infant daughter before she passes away: "Hi Amy, it's Mom. Well, by the time you see this, I won't be here anymore, and I know how much that sucks. For both of us. So, seeing as how I won't be around to thoroughly annoy you, I thought I would give you a little list of things that I wish for you. Well, there's the obvious: an education. Family. Friends. And a life that is full of the unexpected. Be sure to make mistakes. Make a lot of them. Because there's no better way to learn and to grow, all right? And I want you to spend a lot of time at the ocean, because the ocean forces you to dream and I insist that you, my girl, be a dreamer. God. I never really believed in God. In fact, I spent a lot of time and energy trying to disprove that God exists. But I hope that you are able to believe in God, because the thing that I've come to realize, sweetheart, is that it just doesn't matter if God exists or not. The important thing is for you to believe in something, and I promise you that that belief will keep you warm at night, and I want you to feel safe always And there there's love. I want you to love to the tips of your fingers. And when you find that love, wherever you find it, whoever you choose, don't run away from it. But you don't have to chase after it, either. You just be patient and it'll come to you, I promise, when you least expect it. Like you. Like spending the best year of my life with the sweetest and the smartest and the most beautiful baby girl in the world You don't be afraid, sweetheart, and remember to love is to live."
again...we would disagree on that. i would say you're attempting to confine God to the laws humanity is subject to. I'm not willing to do that.
That was one of the worst movies I had ever seen at the theater. There were so many things wrong with it. The biggest had to be how primative the aliens looked and acted, yet they had the technology for long distance space travel. WTH is up with that?! Water was suppose to hurt them right? I guess water vapor/clouds/fog doesn't exist in the world of 'SIGNS' the movie. Also, if water hurts them, why do they want to eat a primarily water based organism? I guess the aliens turn us into beef jerky...who knows... I guess if you ignore all the stuff that doesn't make sense, then it can be a decent suspense.
it wasn't the suspense that captivated me. i'm not really concerned with special effects. the story was about character development...particularly, the lost and found nature of one man's faith and its effect on his family in a trying situation. how the aliens looked...what hurt them...etc...all of that was incidental. besides...how do you know what hurts aliens?? or how they look? or how their digestive processes work??
I understand this was fictional dialogue but the part in bold is something I have heard from real people before. To me it just doesn't make any sense. How does believing in something (regardless of whether it makes sense or is likely true) keep you warm at night or make you feel safe? Put it another way, if "God" was substitued with "Santa Claus", you can see what I'm getting at.
