1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

A question for Harden fans

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by ibm, Mar 27, 2016.

  1. Wommy

    Wommy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2013
    Messages:
    173
    Likes Received:
    136

    Fantastic post mate. Agreed!
     
  2. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    89,600
    Likes Received:
    43,157
    There will be other superstars and star eras after Harden.....

    We need to be bad and draft stars to be better and make a playoff push

    This is another circle NBA teams are running.
     
  3. Mr Chuck Norris

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,526
    Likes Received:
    1,745
    How long are you willing to wait for another one
     
  4. J Sizzle

    J Sizzle Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2012
    Messages:
    43,499
    Likes Received:
    29,548
    It's really not that complicated. Swap Harden out with another star...say...Durant? I betcha those plus minutes numbers look a lot different for both players.

    Also...plus/minus is dumb. I thought we already knew this.
     
  5. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Messages:
    5,581
    Likes Received:
    4,185
    The question was if Harden makes teammates better. Does anyone on our roster have a positive +/- against those teams? How many players on losing teams are going to have a positive +/- against those teams?

    How many players on our roster don't have a much better +/- against those same teams when they are on the floor with Harden vs when Harden is off the floor?

    Harden making his teammates better doesn't mean that we'll have a positive +/- or be able to beat the better teams consistently. One player isn't going to make us a contender. Unfortunately, it just means that we don't suck nearly as much when Harden is on the floor.
     
  6. DVauthrin

    DVauthrin Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 1999
    Messages:
    9,186
    Likes Received:
    7,161
    Of course Harden's offensive prowess far exceeds his defensive issues. That's why he's an all-star and was MVP runner-up last season. But, his defensive weaknesses are absolutely part of the reason the Rockets are 36-38. Every player and coach in the organization is to blame for this abortion of a season. Including Harden.
     
  7. DVauthrin

    DVauthrin Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 1999
    Messages:
    9,186
    Likes Received:
    7,161
    You requested I use RPM to use as a gauge in this discussion because it wasn't teammate dependent like plus-minus is, and it gauges both a player's impact on both offense and defense. Assists is a teammate dependent stat. You can't have it both ways.

    I also like how you focus entirely on offensive improvements that could make Harden's RPM better and don't mention how it could significantly improve if he improved his defensive weaknesses. And considering the Rockets give up 107 a game, that's where I'd start. The Rockets are 2 games under 500 despite scoring 106 points per game. That's simply sad.
     
  8. amaru

    amaru Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    Messages:
    16,609
    Likes Received:
    9,729
    Without Harden this is a 10-15 win team.
     
  9. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    58,875
    Likes Received:
    36,444
    - Excerpted from

    "How not to use Raw Plus Minus: A Case Study" , by DVauthrin
     
  10. blahblehblah

    blahblehblah Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2006
    Messages:
    4,689
    Likes Received:
    3,832
    So in your opinion, Harden doesn't bear any significant fault in the Rockets disappointing season, but is rather his offensive production (slighlty lower than last year) is the sole reason the Rockets aren't historically bad?

    If that is the case, how much credit do you give Harden for the Rocket teams that won 56 games last year? The team was essentially the same and Hardens production while slightly more efficient was essentially the same as this seasons. (26.7 per vs 25.2 per, 605% TS vs 595% TS, 8.5% TRB vs 9.3% TRB, 34.6% AST vs 36% AST, 14.9% TOV vs 16.2 TOV, 31.3 USG vs 32.6 USG) PER36 PTS/RBS/AST(14-15 vs 15-16) 26.8/5.5/6.8 vs 27.2/6.1/7.1
     
  11. chenjy9

    chenjy9 Numbers Don't Lie
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    13,534
    Likes Received:
    10,524
    This team lives and dies on 2 things:
    - James Harden on offense
    - Ability of our scrubs to hit threes

    This year, in addition to garbage D by the entire team, we are also really bad at hitting the same open shots as last year, including Harden shooting at an all time low from downtown. Harden can only do so much by himself especially when the opposing D keys in on him even more. I also have a suspicion that he is playing hurt.
     
  12. ibm

    ibm Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Messages:
    8,600
    Likes Received:
    60
    for those who say w/o harden we'll literally be the bottom feeder of the league... we may be, or we may not be. houston never lacks of star players. if harden isnt playing here, we'd throw the money onto some other star player. so...

    for you hof's out there, it aint like if harden leaves one day, which can happen in a couple of yrs., it will mean the end of this rockets team, ok? :rolleyes:
     
  13. YOLO

    YOLO Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    46,688
    Likes Received:
    44,882
    who were the "stars" before harden came? They didn't have any
     
  14. ibm

    ibm Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Messages:
    8,600
    Likes Received:
    60
    for a short period of time, you're right. i was talking about in general.

    and my bad, i meant if harden isnt playing for houston, it will NOT mean the end of the team. a typo.
     
  15. Rockets025

    Rockets025 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    1,468
    Likes Received:
    105
  16. larsv8

    larsv8 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2007
    Messages:
    21,663
    Likes Received:
    13,914
    Its not a maybe. We would be one of the worst.

    Yes, Houston does lack star players. It currently lacks star players. We will not be a contender without atleast one more star player, and maybe 2.

    Thank you for making this thread, you have quickly proven that you have nothing insightful to say whatsoever and are worthy of the ignore list.
     
  17. ibm

    ibm Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Messages:
    8,600
    Likes Received:
    60
    how do you define "one of the worst"? #25 of the league or worse, or what? and you think if we throw harden's salary onto another allstar or that kinda caliber of a player, we'd be the bottom feeder for sure? can you prove it?

    harden isnt the first big star playing for houston, and he wont be the last for sure. thanks for taking my words out of context.

    since my thread is so stupid, why did you bother read into it and take the time to reply to it?

    and, since you're putting me on the ignore list, can i assume from now on you wont reply or even read my threads/posts? i'd appreciate it if you can keep your words.
     
  18. basketballholic

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    17,516
    Likes Received:
    4,170


    The answer is he made them a lot better last season when they finished with the #2 seed and went to the Conference Finals. This year, not so much. Remember, we brought back the "same players" for "continuity" to be like the Warriors. And this same group, with and without the addition of Lawson, has been awful.
     
  19. YaoMing#1

    YaoMing#1 Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    5,482
    Likes Received:
    4,937

    I get what your saying and you know I 100% do not agree with your assessment of Harden.

    Yes the rockets have had star power through out the years that can't be denied. Houston is not some bottem feeder place like some around here think. It's a big city with a lot to do if your rich and has warm weather with no state taxes.

    With that said it can't be denied that since we got James harden our team success has been higher than any of the star players since Hakeem (Francis, Yao, mcgrady) harden also had a better individual season than any other those guys and was our first player to be 1st team all NBA since dream while also being runner up in mvp.

    I know there just individual awards but they still excite the fan base and also bring more attention the the team in a positive way.

    Now since Harden has been here he's attracted star talent in dwight Howard who is on record saying he came here to play with Harden. We've also been able to get sit down meetings with every big free agent since he came aboard and that never happened before. Unless you count morey giving bosh an iPad before he signed with the heat the first time.

    We damn near had bosh signed also 2 summers ago with every major media outlet saying it was a done deal until the last hour the heat swooped in and gave him the max 5 year offer.

    As long as harden is here wee will continue to get sit down meeting with every big free agent. Which is all you can ask for these guys sigh with 1 team and usually only meet with 4-6 of them. The fact that we get the meetings is huge.

    Lastly you said we could replace harden salary with another player and be maybe as good or somthing along those lines. If I'm wrong im sure you will tell me. But I find that to be wrong on a lot of counts. One harden is an incredible player and the numbers and wins back it up. Second he only makes 15.5 m do you would have to replace him with a player who makes that or less and the only guy who makes less that's better is curry. Damare carrol and Chandler parsons are both making the same money as harden do they make Houston better if we swap? I don't think I even need to answer that.

    My point is that having harden locked in for 2 more years at this low salary has allowed us to go sign 2 more max contracts Wuic is huge and somthing know other team can offer.

    We have and all NBA player and money to sign two max deals this summer. What other team can offer this? The answer is 0.
     
  20. jordnnnn

    jordnnnn Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    10,986
    Likes Received:
    11,959
    It's that easy, isn't it.

    What the hell was Morey doing those years before Harden?

    All he had to do was throw some money at some other star.

    Fire Morey.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now