A Positive Thread - How's that for something new!!!

Sure, of course he would like it if we could get easy fast break points off of good defensive plays; no coach in his right mind wouldn't.

However, it's also true that his general philosphy focuses on tight defense that packs the middle and a halfcourt offense that uses a generous portion of the shot clock that is designed to limit the number of possessions the other team gets, on the theory that that is the effective way to win -- if you are a superior defensive team.

 

Willis that was funnney!

& i for one am SHOCKED, there is acctuly a positive post in the BBS!

 

The thing about this season so far that's different from the last couple...

1) This season's frustrations are due to poor shooting by everyone outside of TMac & Yao. Decisions are a LOT better, just balls are not falling for a lot of the guys.

2) Last season we had lots of crazy shots go in but I can't remember the number of times I screamed at the TV for bone-headed plays and decisions.

I'll take this season's woes since they can hopefully be rectified.

 

I think on defense, you're right -- he wants to pack the middle, and force the other team to shoot from the arc. Generally, a pretty good defensive plan in %'s in the lane vs. the arc. On offense, I don't necessarily agree with your take. I've never seen or heard him say he wants to limit the amount of possessions on OFFENSE or waste down the shot clock. I think that might be skewed by having Francis as the PG last year, as he was known to dribble it until his arm got tired. I see Sura pushing the ball, if nothings there, taking it out to the wing and immeaditely dumping it into Yao or T-Mac to start the offense. I never have seen the Rockets intentionally waste the shot clock as you seem to think JVG wants. Whose offense is used to not use the shot clock? You take what the defense gives you, whether it's 10 seconds into the shot clock or 23 seconds into it.

 

Yes, I've read his public comments. Have you read my posts? It seems like you're not doing so.

I've addressed this 2-3 times now. Of COURSE he wants his team to be able to score in transition. Duhh. He'd be stupid not to. "Hey Tracy, Steve, Cuttino, whoever, if you steal the ball and are at halfcourt and have a 3 on 1, make sure you pull it up and run a long double screen play!" Of course he doesn't say that.

But his teams are more than happy, , in fact, much happier, to pull it up and bleed off the shot clock by running a long set play. When this happens, one of two things is true

1. They are doing what Van Gundy teaches/wants them to do
2. They are NOT doing what Van Gundy teaches/wants them to do

If "1" is true than I don't see how your theory could be true. If "2" is true than you are right, but he is otherwise the most incompetent head coach in the world since his teams have been operating in open defiance of him 75% of the time.

I tend to believe "1" is true.

I'm not sure how "fast breaks are a part of [the half court offense]" as you assert. By definition, this does not seem like anything that could possibly be true. Of course you can have a situation when you are running a break and then pull up and do your half court set plays - but to simultaneously do both is not possible in the conventional sense of the terms.

As for limiting possessions, some teams emphasize it more, and some teams emphasize it less. The Rockets under Jeff Van Gundy emphasize it more, a lot more, than say Phoenix or Seattle. Do you not see the difference between the two? It's not hard for me to see this. I don't think it is hard for anybody else to see this either.

 

(1) Read. More than 51 victories, deep into the second round. Hardly a "national championship." A simple goal which is feasible, and getting further away every day.

(2) "Winning, winning, winning is what motivates the Rockets. Houston is a city where fans and the media want people to succeed. I think Jeff will take us really far, really soon." -- Les Alexander, June 11 2003, the day of JVG's hiring.

 

"Fire Gundy!!!" -- 4 stars
"A Positive Thread" -- 4 stars.
(12/22, 3:06 PM)

 

(1) it would be feesable if the roster hadn't been gridlocked capsiwe with Mo T and Moochie money (spend by Mr. Rudy T aka the "playa's coach" of course) - also, unless you buy tickets or are a season ticket holder (i.e. spend money on the team) then you can be critical, but you have no rights to set expectation or make demands on the team (hense the college reference).

(2) and "Uncle Les" also said that the 2002 team was the best in franchise history - did you think at the press conference he would say, "I think we are undergoing a long rebuilding process and JVG will take many many years to turn it around!" ?!?

 

I've never heard it either, but limiting the number of possessions to maximize the abilities of your own defense is an old, old, tactic, used by Van Gundy, Mike Fratello, Chuck Daly and Pete Carril at Princeton, primarily.

It doesn't mean just sitting there and wasting the shotclock, but it does mean running longer devloping set plays.

It's pretty obvious to me having watched Van Gundy's Rocket or Knick teams that this is the approach he prefers. Like I said before, either this is what he wants them to do, or he is too incompetent to get them to do what he wants, but the numbers don't lie in this instance.

 

Drink up "edc" there is plenty to go around !

 

San Antonio also employs this method (quite well too!)

 

GREAT THREAD!!

I will be happy if we make the playoffs again if not, THEN and only THEN it's time to talk... GOOD THINGS TAKE TIME!! I just hope JVG takes us to the big show and all the same people are still around saying they hate JVG, but I understand why they talk trash... we had lots of Hype of T-Mac and YAO gonna be great and they want to see that NOW, and thats why I think more people dont understand what is going on...

 

(1) I USED TO spend money on Rockets tickets. I haven't bought a single ticket since the onset of the Van Gundy era. When the Rockets are in the midst of a 12-point quarter, it is much, much easier to take if one hasn't dropped a Benjamin to be bored silly. Being a fan and following the organization gives one the "right" to set expectations.

(2) Les is the owner. He said he brought JVG in to win and win soon. Period.

 

yeah those are good numbers, but I want elite numbers.

but you're right we have some things going for us. i'm sure this team will turn it around and make the playoffs.

 

I did read your post, but in it you claimed JVG says "of course we'd like to run" with no intention to actually do so. That is simply not true. As for the rest of your post, you kind of mixed my comments with another's, so I'll try to just address mine. Let's just get this out right now -- we absolutely can NOT have an uptempo style while we still tag Yao Ming as a franchise player. He is no where near conditioned enough to keep up with the constant trips down the court -- and personally, I'm not sure if he ever will be. To go farther, here are two important things you need to have a fastbreak:

1) rebounding. Whoops, the Rockets don't have much of that...

2) outlet passers. Again, we don't have anyone that can grab it and throw it off on the break. Yao grabs it and looks to hand it off most of the time, we celebrate when any PF grabs one.

You can't have a running, up-tempo game when your most consistent rebounders are also the ones that are your best athletes, most consistent finishers on the break, and fastest players. (Sura, Tmac, JJ)

I'm not talking about what Jeff did with the Knicks, or what he did with the Rockets. Having seen the last week of games, I've seen this team turn a cheek in their uptempo style. Will they ever be like Seattle/Phoenix? Hell no. But I DO see Sura pushing it every chance he gets, seeing if he has numbers, and if not bringing it out and getting into the offense quicker. The only thing JVG wants to limit is the number of possessions on offense the other team has -- AKA smart basketball. To say he designs his offense to keep OUR posessions low or to purposedly waste the shot clock is IMO ridiculous.

 

Well said LongTimeFan.

The reason for not shooting a shot(unless it's a layup attempt) in the first 8 seconds of the shot clock is NOT to waste time therefore leading to lower possessions. It's just that if you miss, you catch your own team offguard, and it's a fastbreak the other way. Against teams like the Suns, you don't want to give them any breaks.

 

I was responding to the poster that I quoted, OddsOn, not you.

I've stated numerous times that of course he would run if the chances were there for easy points, as would any coach. But his tolerance for taking quick/bad shots that don't come out of a set offense is apparently exceptionally low; which comes from observing a decent part of the 300 or so NBA games that he has coached. It is not a tradeoff that he makes as readily as Don Nelson would.

you are probably right here.

right again

Ironically his most success with the knicks came when they started playing small ball in 99 when Ewing was out. But that was apparently by accident, not by design, given the rest of their games.

I am talking about what he did with the Knicks and Rockets, that's what I base my assumptions about his coaching philosophy on.

By limiting your own number of possessions, you necessarily limit the other teams as well - and vice versa. This is simple mathematics.

You can call it whatever you want - limiting ours, or limiting theirs, wasting time, running plays. It's all meaningless semantics. The methodology is the same: hold onto the ball.

That is what he has done throughout his NBA career, this is undeniable as his teams generally are at the bottom of scoring and total possessons, both on offense and defense.

 

(2) yes, but EVERY owner wants to win and win soon, but every night half the teams that play... lose PERIOD

now for (1)
technically speaking - you are not a primary consumer of the Rockets. You watch the games so the advertisers want you to like the team, but the minute you stopped buying tickets (soley because of the choice of coaches) , you lost the "right" to set anything for the club. See, if you quit buying tickets to cast an economic vote against the W/L on the court, then you still have some voice in the matter - but you DID NOT. You stopped buying tickets because of the coach - so you have taken yourself out of the stream of commerce - you have no more voice ! Under your HATER-logic, even if the Rockets won 72 games a year, you would not buy tickets because you stopped solely based on the coach.

Let me put it in real world business terms - let say you drink Coke... no wait, let me put it in terms YOU will understand - OK, say Miller High Life decided to change its flavor - now, you can't enjoy that frosty brew as much so you stop buying it - you are casting an economic vote. But you deciding to hate on the Rockets would be like HATING on Miller High Life, just because you didn't like the REgional VP of Sales... or worse yet, the bottle it was wrapped in.

If the team wins THAT should be what matters, and some of us would like to see if this team CAN win before we start judging. But since you don't like JVG, you will NEVER be happy - he is here so deal with it !!