Jeff, I do agree with that definition. But the cartoon did not say that he was stupid because he was black. But there was and is a problem here. The are less black people with higher education levels than white people. And part of that is due to history. But the cartoon COULD fall under this definition, but it did not blatently fall under it. So I don't think anyone could call this blatent racism, as some have. The cartoon was racial in nature, I will agree to that. Like I said, I don't think it told anything that wasn't true. It didn't say that most black people were stupid. It didn't even say most black people can't get good grades. It said that many uneducated black people work airport security. And I GUARANTEE I could show it to some black people who wouldn't call it racist. Again, I'm not saying black people can't or shouldn't be offended by it. But I do think people need to be careful using words. Nothing makes me more upset than when a minority claims injustice is being done, when there is in fact none. It's not that I'm racist or unwilling to accept that unjustices do exist in the world. It's because some people are so ignorant that when something doesn't go their way, it's suddenly because of their race. And it's white people's fault for everything. Why is the leader of the Black Panther party on TV all the time? Maybe I'm just ignorant because I don't know much about him or the party, but I consider it a hate group. He doesn't get chastised for it though. The leader of a white member hate group would get chastised though. That's what makes me mad. It's the few minority people (not just blacks) that today have equal opportunities and don't take them and then complain they're being discriminated against. I know what it's like to be discriminated against. I've had black people straight up tell me I'm a piece of stuck up sh*t because I'm white and I have it easy. Well, I'm telling everyone I didn't have it easy. I got passed up for drum major in high school because they needed a minority person so they would look good. I didn't get into a college I wanted to go to because they needed more minority people to look good. And I didn't have it easy just because I'm white. I had a hard life. Both of my parents were bankrupt at the same time. We were beyond living paycheck to paycheck. But I went to school, got good grades and I'm trying to make something of myself. To me, it seems if I were black and lived the exact same life, I could attribute everything to my race. Am I completely off base? When people are truely discriminated against, I think it's wrong. But like I've said, I think people are looking for someone else to blame. And I also think that people throw words like racism around too often. Dreamer, yes, the cartoon was about inferiority. But it was not inferiority based on race, as I have discussed before. If in fact more uneducated black people work airport security than it is correct. It's about inferior grades, language, and intelligence. The appearance/attractiveness of the characters is what I would see as offending. But it is a way that characterized black people at one time, a time that is associated with racism. However, I don't think that should make the cartoon racist.
Have you considered that maybe the people you are talking about - those that use race as an "excuse for everything" - aren't the representation of the majority of people who still understand the racial imbalances of the world? You know why the leader of the Black Panther party is often put on the news? Because he represents the extreme. He makes those who don't heavily weigh racism in society feel better about themselves because he clearly borders on a hate group. At the same time, he makes the other extreme feel better because he's spewing the exaggerations that dictate their lives. He serves as an easy out. Yet you seem to think everyone doesn't mind him, while not tolerating the same crap from the other side. Well you're wrong. At the same time, you seem to believe there is an equal balance between races - hence the unfairness in what's 'tolerated.' Again, this isn't the case. That's why its called a 'minority'. I'm hispanic, and live in a fairly mixed city - but I *often* am put into situations where I become acutely aware that I stand out. And that sucks. So, I'm sorry you know what racism is like. But that should only make you understand better what impact it has. That's what it's like every day for some. You let your own experiences dictate your view of race, yet 'hate' it when others do the same. Yeah, some people use it as a pure excuse for everything - but there are others who - like you- simply experienced it, and try to fight past it. And opening a paper and reading a cartoon reminding them of that fact makes it that much harder to try and not see the world that way. Their experiences dictate their views - just like yours do. It's not always about using something as an excuse for them, any more than it is for you. Nobody wants you to feel sorry for them. But they would like to pick up a paper without seeing them characterized as inferior in every way. And they'd like it if people could understand how much it hurts without trying to rationalize the 'wrong' aspects of the act.
HAHA! Funny. I think you missed the point. While that was not the end of the world, it was something I worked really really hard at and deserved. If the roles were reversed and a white person got it over a minority person, who was better qualified, it would have been wrong, racist and discrimination. Try looking for the meaning behind things before you tell me what a "bummer" that was. You don't know me or my life. And most of my life has been really hard, so please think before you write next time.
Rokkit: BRAVO!!! Princess: Let me say that I wasn't saying you were WRONG just that I disagree. It is the nature of discussion here and everywhere. However, being angry that you were treated unfairly because of race, as rokkit pointed out, should make you accutely aware of how bad it must be if you were treated that way EVERY day of your life.
Did the band director tell you that it was the only reason you didn't become drum major? How about the reasons you didn't get in to the college of your choice, did the dean of admissions call you and tell you it was because of the fact that you were white?
Rokkit- What you say is entirely true. The people of whom I speak are a minority of the minority. I have spoken to a good friend of mine who is hispanic. As I have said before, he is very tolerant and he and I have exchanged jokes that are of racial nature (but not necessarily racist). And we've always been able to, since we know each other very well. But he too has a point where enough is enough. If someone puts you down all the time, it's hard to just turn the other cheek. And I understand that. My point is still that the cartoon was offensive, and I have realized that (if you don't remember, when it first came out, I was all for it). But it was not racist. It involved racial issues, yes. And people of one race were offended by it. But I think we should save the word racist for things like the dragging death of James Byrd in Jasper, not too long ago. It may be a matter of semantics to some, but I think semantics are important, in any case. I also think that it would be easier for a very secure, intelligent person to look past the racial issues of the cartoon. I know this cannot always happen, because people can only take so much, as I said earlier. But unless you find something in the cartoon you can identify with, it shouldn't offend you. If you're just black, but very intelligent with a great job and house, should this still offend you? Maybe it did, and maybe it should. I think people of minorities and blacks in particular are making advances in America everyday. More and more are going to college and getting good jobs and living great lives. Why should this cartoon offend them? The reason I would not find the same cartoon with white trash people in place of the black people offensive or racist towards me is because I know that is not me. I know that I'm smarter than that. Can this not hold true for black people? I am honestly asking this because I do not understand. If I could better understand why it hurts and offends, I would. But no one has told me. The cartoon is offensive and racist because black people didn't like it. That's about all I've gotten. You're entry helped, but I still don't get it completely. You said that you feel differently because you're hispanic. Why do you feel different? I'm glad that you can recognize that I might understand racism. But I still don't see how the cartoon is.
No Princess, I GOT the point. You feel you were cheated out of something that should have been yours simply because of the color of your skin -- racism hurts, doesn't it? I find it highly ironic that you deride minorities who use their skin color as a way to rationalize why they didn't achieve certain things in life, then you go and fill your post with examples (drum major, college admission) of how you were cheated out of things you deserve because of the color of your skin. Do you have proof of that? Are you certain that you were the better drum major? Did your college admissions officer tell you that he was choosing a minority even though you were the better student? Or is this simply another example of, as you put it, "people being so ignorant that when something doesn't go their way, it's suddenly because of their race"? And you're right, I don't know you or your life. But whatever you put on this board is assumed to be up for discussion and I feel I have just as much right to comment as anyone else. Perhaps you have had a rough twenty years so far, but let me clue you in on something: Everyone has it rough in one way or another. It's how we deal with those adversities that is the true measure of our lives.
princess... Actually, I'd never looked it up. I just did. The definitin is according to dict.org " racist adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist]" Pretty close to what I expected. Discrimnatory seems to define that cartoon pretty well. To "discriminate" does not simply include not allowing black people to eat at your restaurant, but also when you make a spurious distinction. That cartoon was straight out of black-face type characterizations. Therefore, a spurious distinction was imposed between black people and white people. Hence, it was racist. Ah, but why doesn't it fit the defition? I explained the semantics of the situation above. It fits the definition. You seem to be saying that cases of racist imagery that don't have great implications aren't racist. That's not accurate. They're simply not as important. Your defense is tainted by your own misunderstanding of the term. Racism doesn't require a huge, heinous, men-dressed-in-white-sheets situation to exist. And yes, I did read the article. And I thought it did a very poor job proving that this was offensive-but-not racist. I can't read into anybody's heart. But I do believe you have to bend over backward to claim this isnt' racist. Ockham's Razor: the simplest explanation is usually true. We can either assume: A. This author had an amazing naivety concerning blackface and traditional mischaracterization of black people despite the fact that he attends a good school and is trusted with a good position. We can further assume that his editor had the same amazing naivety. or B. He was being racist. Which explanation requires less suspension of disbelief? B. By a mile.
If you got the point, Mrs.JB, then did you really need the smart a$$ remark. Seems rather childish to me. Anyway, no, I have no concrete proof. I do know though that several people from my high school with lower class ranks (I was in the top 1%) lower SAT scores, and fewer extracirricular activities, leadership positions, and volunteer work did get in. And all of them were minorities. In fact, the only people from my schoo that got in a weren't minorities were on athletic scholarships or valedictorian. That's it. No one else. And I knew several white people also well qualified who did not get in. As far as drum major, yes, I was better qualified. Region band 5 years in a row (the only person in our school to do that up to that point). 2nd chair, top band as a freshman. My band director even told me I would be drum major my senior year when I was a freshman. I was marcher of the year every year. And our marching band did end up sucking due to the lack of leadership. Every year, they have always had one minority person (perhaps it was a coincidence, perhaps it made them look good). So there too, there is no concrete proof, but there is a strong case. And some of it turned out for the better for me. I didn't have as much work as the drum majors, so I got better grades in school, moved up in class rank and improved on my music. And I ended up getting a great scholarship to U of H and I'm on the Dean's List and doing quite well. So I'm not blaming every failure or any success on the fac that I'm white. I've had many failures that are simply failures because of me. And I do realize that not all minorities use skin as a way out. The few that do and have no reason to do piss me off though. And I think it's unfair. I know life isn't fair and things won't always go my way. But I do know enough to know what I am capable of succeeding at. Like I said, good things happened to me as a result of the failures I mentioned. So I am dealing with it. But why do I have to just accept it and deal with it when they can't just accept the cartoon and deal with it? (A bit of a stretch for a comparison, but I feel I have the right to ask).
I understand now that you make that distinction, but I think it shouldn't be made. Why should racism be confined to a tragedy such as death? That would be a disservice. If someone judges another on their race, sees them as 'inferior' or defined by simply a generalization (such as in the cartoon), that is a characterization fueled by a low opinion of another person's race. Or in other examples, the use of race to hold back their abilities and potential. Like what happened to *you*. Did that not seem like racism to you? Were you not held back, or denied of your potential, lumped into a group where it was already predetermined you would go no further? There's a parallel, there, in the sense that that's what happens when someone sees another race as inferior (and when it's further strengthed when you do as little as open your paper). That's racism too, -you yourself said as much - and it holds back this country, and to try and downplay it to anything less than that takes us a big step backwards. There's an analogy I've used before, and I'll try and relate it here. I don't know you personally - and believe me, I'm not trying to be personal here - so I don't know your family/last name. But imagine that your last name was often slandered in the past. Imagine across the country people with your last name were associated with uneducated, inferior people who were incapable of reaching higher levels in society. For generations, your family was considered by many people higher in society to be simply below them. Now imagine that, through the years, you've been able to work past that. Hard work, schooling, other methods have helped you to shake that past. You are trying to make something of yourself. Your family is less and less something that other, bigoted people can laugh at. You know you are better than that, but you know that you are just working past it and there are members of your family that have yet to escape that stigma. You worry that future generations won't be able to get out from under that shadow. And despite your work, there are people in your family that take advantage of their place - saying people don't give them a chance because they are simply your family. At the same time, there are people that still think your family - anyone with your last name - is inferior and won't amount to a damn thing in this world. You can't stand this. Now, at school, open a paper and see this cartoon with some kid with overexaggerated dull, dimwitted features with your name plastered across his shirt. Clearly, this is you to the author. You are related to just another low level job and won't amount to anything. Are you offended? Do you just shrug it off and think it isn't personal to you? It always seems to me that ethnic groups take their ethnicity very seriously. And often they feel a close relationship with it. Its when other people don't understand this relationship - why can't you just shrug it off? - that they don't see the pain damaging it can cause, and how the racial divide is created.
haven- I still do not see how this is discriminatory. It wasn't saying anything bad about him simply because he was black. Your definition does not mention a "spurious disinction." Please tell me how you made that connection. No where does it say that he is uneducated because he is black. Please explain because by your dictionary and mine, I don't see how this fits.
I understand. And I am aware of true racism, which I don't feel this is. And I doubt that most of the people who were truly offended and hurt by this are treated this way every day of their lives.
Rokkit- You make a very good analogy. And it would offend me. But that's family. And that's something I'm very closely connected too, generation wise. I feel that black people and minorities have had the chance to be educated and go to good schools. It's not like segregation ended just yesterday. It ended a long time ago, and I know it's been hard, but I think they've had chances to overcome it. This generation now is not the first who is able to make something of itself (imo). I know some still have hardships and I understand that it's still not easy and discrimination still exists. Black people have had increasing opportunity to advance every day. The Jews were oppressed for years. And they have overcome it and made great things. I have Jewish friends and went to dinner at their house over the winter break. And they have prayers that reflect on their oppression and how many advances they have made since then. The oppression made them stronger and they should be grateful to be strong. (I probably didn't get that all right, so if anyone is Jewish, don't be offended. And if I'm WAY off base, please correct me). Why do other minorities make themselves victims? My family was dead broke as I have said earlier and I didn't have it easy (not like my name was slandered or anything, but it's in that direction). We didn't have all new clothes and cars growing up. And now, I look back on that as a building and growing experience. Look at how hard it was and look how well I turned out. You're only a victim if you make yourself a victim. And I wasn't trying to limit racism to tragedy. I was making a distinction though. Racism is solely about race. It is about hatred of a race. While I can understand why some blacks would see the cartoon as a slap in the face, I don't think it was racist or intended to do that.
I know, that's the points I was trying to make. (Sorry if they weren't clear, it's late. ) That: 1. It is offensive, because its family. And ethnic groups take their ethnicity very seriously. Like family. 2. Yes, there are a lot of advances now. Increase in education. Which is why the cartoon is even worse, relating to such an notion. Going back to the 'uneducated minority' angle. Its insulting, tries to take steps backwards, and tries to relate race with such a social standing. Which is why its racist. You talked about the Jewish struggles. You think that they would not be angry if a cartoon went out of its way to offend them? And like I said, I think this cartoonist has already had a problem with offending Jewish people. 3. They don't all make themselves victims. You make them victims with the line of thinking that the, like you said, 'minority of the minority' are prime examples of the social state today. Many are *trying* to get past that. But a cartoon like this again tries to put them in the characterization of the past. How? With race. Pure and simple. And it strenghtens those who put that group in with that inferior label - and those people *are* racist.
Excuss me for using your quote RM, but I just couldn't force myself to read the whole thread tonight. I'll just say this, as I said in another thread, the word racism has too wide a meaning but seems to be applied to everything derogatory written, said, drawn, projected by white folk of black. That is the reason many white folk are hesitate to call it racism. They associate racism with lynchings, segregation, the middle passage even. They begin to wonder how a drawning could be on the level with those kinds of things. More accurately, I think what black folk are really sayings is this drawing doesn't respect me or my people or something I feel strong about. If this is not so, then I'm not sure how to respond except to say I disagree. And I think it also devalues what slaves and people who were lynched, Dr. king and others fought for. A drawing of this kind shows ignorance but ONE man's ignorance, in a certain situation. It only has as much power as you allow it to have. It's like the klan these days. Most people think them a joke. They go around trying to get people to fight them. If none show, then they can do nothing but crawl back in the whole from whence they came.
Rokkit- I still disagree and do not think it is racist. Offensive, yes, but not racist. I am not saying it's not serious enough at all. What I am saying is the cartoon is not solely about race. It is still about education and airport security. It was not saying anything that wasn't true. It was not saying all black people are dumb. It was not saying they can't make anything of themselves in life. In fact, it did say that if the boy got good grades, he COULD make something of himself. There is positive in the cartoon. I was hesitant to point it out earlier, but I feel that it's important. Racism implies hatred. It always has. This was not hatred. It wasn't even intended to make fun of all black people I believe. What if a black cartoonist had drawn this? What would that mean? And I still want proof of the other minority groups putting up a fight when cartoons were published about them. As far as I know, cartoons were published about other groups and no one else made a fuss about it. Which makes this cartoon less about race, if other groups laughed at their cartoons. Timing- I'm not saying they should not be offended. But as a white person, if I don't mean for something to offend a black person or any other minority, then I do have a right. I think people in general (whites included) are too easy to get offended a look for someone else to blame. It's the same case with all the frivilous law suits today. People want someone else to blame.
I never said you shouldn't be offended by the drawning. Hell, I'm offended by the drawning. I said that the drawing is not racism in the most accurate sense of the word. It's derogatory. But while were on the subject, why does what one believes true or not true concerning race automaticly label him or her one color or the other? And in actual fact, black folk not white folk tell other black folk what to be offended by. If you don't get with that status quote, you'll lose your blackness.
Wow, I completely agree. Derogatory is a great word (well, not really, but it fits this I think). That's mostly what I've been trying to get across and I think what the article meant. What I have a problem with is why do you have to follow "rules of blackness" to still be "black." I knew lots of black guys that would fall into this category. There's divisions in races, not just between them?
