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A Look Back: 1996 NBA Draft

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by OrangeCountyCA, Jan 18, 2008.

  1. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    Ok then...what did happen is that Stockton had a better field goal percentage than Nash.

    This year, Dwight Howard has made 298 free throws at a percentage of 59.96%. Chauncey Billups has made 219 free throws at a percentage of 90.49%. According to your logic, Dwight Howard is a better free throw shooter than Billups because he made more.

    Is that a correct assumption?
     
  2. NightHawk

    NightHawk Member

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    Why do you care? When people start with age smack it lets me realize they don't have much to say. FYI....Im almost thirty years old.

    I watched Stockton play his entire career. Ive never said he wasn't a great player, but he never won any championships despite playing with one of the best power fowards of all time and a team that was consistently at the top of the league

    As I have argued repeatedly, he was great at passing the ball, but he was nowhere near the scoring threat that Steve Nash was.
    Stockton was never was the best player on his team. Kevin Johnson, Magic, Isaiah, Nash, Kidd have all had stints where they were without a doubt the best players on their teams.

    I never feared Stockton like i did Magic, Isaiah Thomas, Nash, Baron Davis, or Gary Payton. These guys could run the point, but could also rip your heart out and go for 35 or 40 points and still dish out 10-15 dimes.

    Stockton was a good point guard, but he was not as good as Magic Or Isaiah Thomas.
    I would take Gary Payton and Steve Nash in their primes over Stockton and its a tossup when I compare him to Jason Kidd.
     
  3. Chronz

    Chronz Member

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    Nash and Stockton have are dead even for their careers in shooting efficiency:
    eFG%
    Nash: .552
    Stockton: .546

    Stockton was better at getting to the line but both have a TS% of .600

    But you cant just say he would score more if he only shot more, if he had looked for his shot more then he wouldnt have passed as much, you are who you are, dont evaluate who they COULDVE been.

    That said Stockton was better, he wasnt the scorer Nash was but he created more for others yet their turnovers for their careers are the same. Nash has had 4 seasons with an Off.RTG above 120, while Stocktons CAREER average is 121.

    Since reaching the age of 25 Stockton had 16 straight seasons with a PER above 20 even at the age of 40, I have never known a player display a combination of longevity and effectiveness the way Stockton has, even Cassel doesnt come close. Nash could be the next to do so but even if he does he was never the defender Stockton was.
     
  4. awo86

    awo86 Rookie

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    Walker is hands down the better player and the more accomplished NBA player by far. We tend to forget and get overlooked by his current poor form. But walker was once a very good player alongside pierce and he is able to bring wins to his team, unlike shareef. How can you compare a guy whos never been in the playoffs as a focal point to a guy whos bring his team to the ECF. Absurd!!!!
     
  5. awo86

    awo86 Rookie

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    very good argument my man!

    IMO, perople tend to under-respect Nash because he doesn't come off as athletic in today's NBA where every fan is desiring highlight-reel type player. he is by far a better overall NBA player who can impact the wins of a game
     
  6. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    I stand corrected on placing Joe Johnson on that other Suns team, after he went to ATL. But please stop throwing MVP's into the discussion, unless you want to show me how you think Nash wins MVP's over Magic, Hakeem, MJ or Barkley.

    The fact is that from the late 80's to the mid 90's Stockton put up multiple seasons similar to the ones in which Nash won his MVPs (statistically). The fact is Stockton has led his team to the Finals twice, hitting the game clincher to send them there the first time. The fact is that Stockton is the leagues historical leader in two categories (assists and steals). The fact is Stockton played defense while Nash seems like it doesn't exist. In case you forgot basketball is played on both ends of the court. You are going to argue that Parker going off for 29, 24, 18, 13 (loss) and 18 had nothing to do with the Spurs beating the Suns 4-1 in 2005? Parker going off for 32, 13 (loss), 16, 23 (loss), 11 and 30 had nothing to do with them winning 4-2 last year?
     
  7. Chronz

    Chronz Member

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    When has Antoine ever led a team to the playoffs as a focal point? Your punishing Shareef for never being on a team as good as the C's and never having a guy better than him like Pierce is to Antoine.
     
  8. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Are you saying that people think Stockton is better than Nash because Stockton was athletic? If anything, Stockton was even less athletic than Nash.
     
  9. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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    All I remember is if the Rockets left Stockton open, he would never miss.
     
  10. NightHawk

    NightHawk Member

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    I don't care if you are talking about Magic, Bird, Jordan or Barkley or present day superstars such as Tim Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Kevin Garnett, Dirk or Lebron.

    If Steve Nash had joined the Suns in 1989 and led them from 29 wins to 62 wins and the best record in the entire NBA he would have been an MVP canidate.

    Jordan and Shaq should have won MVP every year when they were in their prime, yet plenty of other players won because the media doesn't like to give it to the same player every year.
     
  11. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    Actually, its a sound logical argument that if he shoots more, he will score more (given that his career field goal percentage is over 50%).

    He was a pass-first player b/c that was how he could help his team the most. My point is that his scoring ability shouldn't be discounted because he chose to pass instead of shoot.
     
  12. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    The media doesn't like to give it to the same player ever year? Didn't Jordan win it 5 times?

    No one is saying Nash didn't deserve his MVP's. But you seem to think that his MVP's place Nash in a different league than Stockton despite the fact that their stats are very similar. You brought up the fact that Nash's career stats are diluted from his early, unproductive years. However, Stockton's stats are diluted by both his early, unproductive years as well as the years he played past his prime.

    But what several people have brought up (and you havent addressed) is that Stockton was a far superior defender than Nash.
     
  13. Chronz

    Chronz Member

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    Then dont you realize that the same speculative argument holds true for Nash as well. He and Reggie Miller are the only players in league history with their scoring rate with a TS% above .650. So by your logic Nash is still the better scorer.

    Besides his FG% could be affected by how often he looked for his own shot, instead of being efficient he couldve looked to force the issue more to score and could as a result lower his efficiency.

    Both are playing their game to help their team win, you dont judge them by what they COULDVE done, only by how they actually played the game.

    Had he looked to score more then he wouldnt have passed as much, unless you somehow magically gave him more possessions to work with.
     
  14. Mango

    Mango Contributing Member

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    What season was Phoenix in last place?



    I haven't seen anybody suggest that Nash needs to be Bruce Bowen, but if he wants to win a Championship or even return to the NBA Finals with Phoenix, then it would be helpful if he played a bit more Defense.

    Nash has gotten to the NBA Finals?
    Right?



    Nash joined Phoenix for the 2004 -2005 season.
    Steve Nash career Stats

    I am confused about you mentioning:

    1) That Nash was part of the Suns turnaround in the 2004-2005 season

    2) That Karl Malone was solid in being able to play regularly.

    3) That the Suns were able to make the Conference Finals without Amare.


    Yet, there are other very related things that you failed to mention.

    Why didn't you mention these things also?

    In the 2003 - 2004 season, the Suns gave up on the season and traded Stephon Marbury to the Knicks.

    Knicks bring Marbury home (Published: January 6, 2004)


    Amare Stoudemire Bio


    2003-04:
    ......... Went on injured list on Dec. 6, one day after suffering a third degree sprained left ankle at Boston on Dec. 5 and did not return until Jan. 9 vs. Sacramento after missing 18 games... Did not dress for nine consecutive games (Jan. 19-Feb. 2) due to left ankle, big toe injury suffered vs. Portland on Jan. 18... Returned to the court vs. Portland on Feb. 4 after missing 27 of last 32 games (Suns went 7-20 without him)...


    In 2004 - 2005, Amare played in 80 games versus the 55 games that he played in 2003 - 2004.

    Amare Stoudemire Career Stats


    You attribute the improved record for the 2004 - 2005 Suns solely to Nash joining the team, but the Suns had issues in 2003 - 2004 with the team having Amare miss a good chunk of games and Stephon Marbury being on that team for about 34 games.

    When Amare was out injured in 2003 - 2004 and the Suns gave up on the season in early January .................you fail to mention it.

    When Amare was out a few years later, you gladly mention it because it suited your needs in the discussion.


    In regards to Amare being out and the Suns still reaching the Western Conference Finals.........it surely helps to have a player like Shawn Marion on the roster.

    Shawn Marion Bio




    2005-06:
    Enjoyed a career year in his seventh NBA season, averaging 21.8 points (prev. 21.2 in 2002-03), 11.8 rebounds (11.3, prev. 11.3 in 2004-05), 1.69 blocks (prev. 1.47 in 2004-05), 60 double-double (third highest total in franchise history) on 52.5 percent shooting (prev. 48.0 in 2000-01), all career highs in 2005-06… Led the team in scoring (tied for 15th), rebounding (3rd), steals (1.98, 5th), blocks (17th) and minutes played (32.4, tied for 7th)... One of only four NBA players (Kevin Garnett, Elton Brand, Yao Ming) to average at least 20 points and 10 rebounds… Only NBA player ranked in the top 20 in points (T-15th), rebounds (3rd), steals (5th), blocks (17th), field goal percentage (T-10th) and minutes played T-7th)… Finished in the top five in rebounds and steals for the second consecutive season, only one other NBA player has done it even once since the league started to track steals in 1973-74 (David Robinson, 1991-92)… Recorded the Suns’ highest rebounding (11.8) since Charles Barkley averaged 12.2 in 1992-93… Named NBA Western Conference Player of the Month for February after guiding the Suns to a 9-1 record and averaged 24.2 points and 13.9 rebounds… It was the first time in his career he’s won the monthly honor.... In the playoffs, scored in double figures 20 times, 20-plus points 11 times, 30-plus points 4 times… Tallied a 2006 Suns playoff-high 36 points (16-33 FG) and playoff career-high 20 rebounds in Game 5 of the conference semifinals vs. Clippers on May 16… It was the Suns first 30-20 postseason game since Charles Barkley had 30 points and 20 rebounds in Game 2 of the first round of the 1996 NBA Playoffs at San Antonio on April 28, 1996… His 33 field goals attempts were a franchise playoff record (prev. 32, Amaré Stoudemire vs. San Antonio, June 1, 2005) and in the double-overtime 125-118 victory, logged playoff career-high 55 minutes, third highest in Suns postseason history, trailing only Kevin Johnson (62) and Dan Majerle (59) at Chicago on June 13, 1993 in the 1993 NBA Finals.… Recorded 12 double-doubles… Notched first double-double this postseason with 20 points and 12 rebounds in Game 4 at Lakers on April 30 before fouling out with 2:37 remaining in the fourth quarter in a game the Suns lost in overtime… Grabbed 10 or more rebounds 12 times, 15 or more rebounds five times… Already passed Dan Majerle (411), Mark West (371) and Garfield Heard (370) on the Suns all-time playoff rebounding list this postseason and ranks third in team history behind only Charles Barkley (644) and Alvan Adams (588)… Marion has 592 career postseason rebounds with Phoenix and now trails only Charles Barkley (644) in franchise playoff history.
     
  15. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    Actually, by my logic, since Stockton has a better career fg%, if he had taken more shots, he would be the better scorer. But you're right...he didnt. But theres nothing wrong with speculation. Pretty much every thread in these forums involves speculation.

    My point is, some of you are acting like Stockton was inept at scoring. Thus far in Nash's career, Nash is only averaging 1 more point than Stockton. And Since Stockton shoots at a higher fg% (his ft% is lower but still respectable), I dont understand how anyone can think that Nash is much more potent on offense.

    If you want to talk about how they play the game, their offense is comparable, but Nash's defense is nothing compared to Stockton's.

    Do you agree?
     
  16. rimrocker

    rimrocker Contributing Member

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    That means you were watching Stockton as a rookie at the age of 6. I call BS.
     
  17. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    That's exactly what I remember too. :(
     
  18. Panda

    Panda Member

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    I only watched Stockton play in his old days, when he was past his prime. I feared him and that stupid horseface Hornacek taking open shots. Those two guys could shoot even in wheelchairs.
     
  19. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    People often overlook Stockton as a deadly shooter because he always looked to pass. His shooting was so reliable it made his pnr so lethal. You just can't leave him open and it always ended up with someone getting an open shot.

    Nash has the same skill. However, unlike Stockton, Nash is more willing to take some bad shots. He is not as patient and disciplined as Stockton and therefore not as efficient. But both are great. If you have a deadly jumper and an all-seeing court vision, you are unstoppable as a PG.
     
  20. Chronz

    Chronz Member

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    FG% doesnt take into account that hitting a 3 is worth more than hitting a 2. So no by your logic Nash is still the better at scoring because he not only scored more, but proven capable of maintaining his scoring efficiency.

    For their careers, but at peak value Nash is the supreme scorer. Id still say Stockton is the better offensive player but its not because of his personal scoring ability.

    Its why Ive been saying Stockton is the better player throughout my posts, Im just pointing out the flaws in your reasoning, Nash is the better scorer because hes proven it.
     

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