I thought I'd show something similar to what was shown in this thread for our backcourt rotation. Code: Name Min +/- +/- (per 36) Lowry 1378 +106 +2.8 Brooks 531 -62 -4.2 Martin 1379 +21 +0.5 Lee 869 -24 -1.0 Brooks missed most of the easy December schedule, but his slump in the past week or so has hurt the bench +/- in recent games.
Thanks OP. Good work. Keep em comin (if you have the time that is). From looking at the graphs - Its interesting how both Martin and Lowry started going up around the same time at 11/29 then they both took a dive at the same time around 12/27. Then they both started going up at the same time around 1/7 this year. Hmmmmmmm. Brooks has been sucking at a conistant level while Lee has been erratic. Box score devulge very little about how well someone played and what impact they had on the floor. I like the sort of info that measures the true impact of every play and accounts for production at both ends as opposed to box scores. What else do you have OP?
Kyle Lowry is the closest thing we have to an effective two way player. Interesting to see Kevin Martin's mediocre + 0.5... Counting the seconds to when we play Terrence Williams.
I read an article of someone's NBA No-Defense watch list:http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawaka...arris-curry-and-yes-the-mighty-blake-griffin/ For Kevin Martin he put Which kinda supports Martin's overall neutral effect. He maybe hasnt been AS bad as he's looked on D. Or he's looked exactly how we think, gives up points but scores them back.
Makes sense, Brooks is like a homeless man's Iverson, he works best in isolation. I think in the clutch he has something like 20% assisted on his buckets. He's allergic to PnR on offense and defense. I just hope he's still got good trade value around the league.
Brooks: Overall +/-: -25. +/- per total minutes played: -.008 Lowry: Overall +/-: 94. +/- per total minutes played: .057 http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22009&split=9&team=Rockets There's one game missing though, I guess the official site of the league got too lazy by the last game of the season.
I don't think stats are stupid, I love stats.... Plus/minus is stupid....some of the more advanced stats I really like.....but this is not one, it is simply like 20% of the picture, doesn't account for much, IMO. I do appreciate Durv taking the time to make the charts though, just think the data is worthless. DD
To summarize, DD hates plus minus since it doesn't account for who's on the floor. He hates adjusted plus minus even more, because it expressly does, and exposes his 1 mm deep logic.
http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?year=2009-2010&id=666 -21 in 2876 minutes, or -0.3 per 36 minutes. -1.4, I believe, when not sharing the floor with Lowry.
That's fair, but I don't consider 20% of the picture worthless. I've said this before, maybe you just don't agree, but nothing gives you an entire picture. We've got fragments of a total picture, and we have to do our best to bring it all together and make sense of it all. I agree with Spoelstra's take on +/- (and, I imagine, this is in line with how Pat Riley views it as well). Don't dismiss it, but its important to have a more measured, nuanced take that tries to look at the numbers in context (e.g. who you're playing with, who you're playing against, what time of the game you see court time, sample size, etc.). http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/john_schuhmann/01/22/spoelstra-qa/ [rquoter] NBA.com: Do players understand plus-minus? E.S.: I think now they do, because it's much more prevalent than it was a few years ago. You see it on everybody's website. Journalists now talk about it more. You can argue all you want about this or that, but at the end of the day, the most important statistic is the result on the scoreboard when you're on the floor. I think that resonates with players, so we challenge our guys all the time. Make your minutes a positive. Whatever minutes you're out there, don't let the score go the other way. After each game, I have a big printout, about 30 pages, of different statistics. I don't look through all the pages, but there are some that I immediately look at. I'll always look at the plus-minus of individual players to start, but I think that can be deceptive. From there, you have to look at the combinations. NBA.com: Plus-minus should never be dismissed, but it always has to be taken in context. E.S.: Absolutely. So I never look at just the player. I look at different combinations and all different layers. I probably learned that from Pat and Stan more than anything. You take all the data and you'll gain a lot more information than you had before. But ultimately, the most important thing it will do is get you to ask more questions and seek different answers. So I think that's sparked more creativity with our staff, to not just be complacent with the status quo, but to search for other things that might be better. And numbers have been a big part of that thinking process for us. [/rquoter]
You're reading it wrong, it says he is a neutral defensive player nowadays. Which is to say he is about average defensively, which is quite a surprising assertion. Because he is anything but "neutral" on the offensive end, and if you can pair that with an average defense, that would make a very very good player.
Martin's defense certainly looks better to me than it ever has. I'm not sure I would say he is neutral defensively but he certainly isn't the defensive negative he appeared to be early this season and throughout his career. He and Lowry will be the starting backcourt for this team for quite some time barring a CP3-like acquisition.
What this shows is that Lowry has by far the biggest potential on the team. This year, he has shown off his half court playmaking, shot making, and all around team management. At the same time, he has not hustled much at all, all his hustle stats are down like charges drawn, FTA/36, Offensive rebounds, etc... If he can combine his hustle play from last year with his improved offensive play this year, he literally could be a Rondo like player.
That's why I actually took the time to show what happened, game by game, and why I also noted that Brooks missed out on the easy December schedule.
The most potential? You're joking right? His defense is not even close to as good as rondos, doesn't have the handles, and will never be an offensive threat. Lowry is a great bench player, but a subpar starting pg. The idea that he will somehow turn out robbe as good as rondo is a pipe dream.
