1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

A Federal Judge's report from Iraq

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by treeman, Sep 29, 2003.

  1. treeman

    treeman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 1999
    Messages:
    7,146
    Likes Received:
    261
    This guy was vehemently opposed to the war before, but after visiting has since changed his mind. An interesting read, something which I am sure will piss off some of our more anti-Bush posters, and something the mainstream media won't fill you in on:

    Iraq: A Federal Judge's Point of View
    By Judge Don Walters

    PREFACE Last Wednesday night, I attended a lecture by Judge Don Walters, a federal judge from Shreveport, LA., who was asked to serve as part of a 12 man team in Iraq to evaluate their justice system. It was most interesting, and afterwards, I asked if he had a book or a recording of any of his lectures. Since he did not, he was generous enough to give me his notes from the evening. For those of you interested, I will give you a slightly abridged version of his lecture which I found difficult to cut down due to its wealth of information.

    THE LECTURE: I really am not into public speaking as I am sure you are about to find out. But my adventures in Iraq taught me something that I would very much like to share with you. I have been fortunate over the past 5 or 6 years to get to such exotic places as Bosnia, Jakarta, Indonesia, and Morocco. But, Iraq is my swan song. First, I am too old for such adventures, and second, Charlotte (my wife) won't let me. In mid-April, I got a call from DoJ asking if I would be willing to go to Iraq for up to 3 months to evaluate the justice system and make recommendations. When I went home, Charlotte said without a pause, "how could I possibly tell you, no?"

    Let me begin with a disclaimer, I was in Iraq for fewer than 40 days, I was in Baghdad for a little over three weeks and in the three provinces of the far south for two weeks. I am limited in what I saw and heard. Needless to say, the opinions are my own. I want to make it clear that, initially, I vehemently opposed the war. The team of 12 that went to Iraq was to access the judiciary and to make recommendations for the future. We were sent too soon and without sufficient planning and forethought. Accordingly we were forced to play our part by ear. Ultimately, we were successful. No thanks to the civil authorities in Washington or Iraq.

    We were divided into 4 teams. We were the southern team: Mike Farhang, an AUSA from Los Angeles, Harvard Summa Undergraduate, Harvard Law Review, Linguist, 5 languages including Arabic; Rich Coughlin, Federal Public Defender from New Jersey, who abandoned his wife and 23 month old daughter to volunteer for this; and me. We were accompanied by an interpreter and protected by what I called our "minders," four Iraqis well-armed with 9mm hand guns and AK47's. During the first two weeks, we talked to a few hundred Iraqis and interviewed about 60 judges. Our help came from our Danish colleagues and the First Armored Division (UK), not from the civil authorities - OPCA, Office of the Provisional Coalition Authority, (formerly ORHA), Ambassador Brenner's group.

    Despite my initial opposition to the war, I am now convinced, whether we find any weapons of mass destruction or prove Saddam sheltered and financed terrorists, absolutely, we should have overthrown the Baathists, indeed, we should have done it sooner.

    What changed my mind? When we left mid June, 57 mass graves had been found, one with the bodies of 1200 children. There have been credible reports of murder, brutality and torture of hundreds of thousands of ordinary Iraqi citizens. There is poverty on a monumental scale and fear on a larger one. That fear is still palpable. I have seen the machines and places of torture.

    I will tell you one story told to me by the Chief of Pediatrics at the Medical College in Basra. It was one of the most shocking to me, but I heard worse. One of Saddam's security agents was sent to question a Shiite in his home. The interrogation took place in the living room in the presence of the man's wife, who held their three month old child. A question was asked and the thug did not like the answer; he asked it again, same answer. He grabbed the baby from its mother and plucked its eye out. And then repeated his question. Worse things happened with the knowledge, indeed with the participation, of Saddam, his family and the Baathist regime.

    Thousands suffered while we were messing about with France and Russia and Germany and the UN. Every one of them knew what was going on there, but France and the UN were making millions administering the food for oil program. We cannot, I know, remake the world, nor do I believe we should. We cannot stamp out evil, I know. But this time we were morally right and our economic and strategic interests were involved. I submit that just because we can't do everything doesn't mean that we should do nothing. We must have the moral courage to see this through, to do whatever it takes to secure responsible government for the Iraqi people. Having decided to topple Saddam, we cannot abandon those who trust us.

    I fear we will quit as the horrors of war come into our living rooms. Look at the stories you are getting from the media today. The steady drip, drip, drip of bad news may destroy our will to fulfill the obligations we have assumed. WE ARE NOT GETTING THE WHOLE TRUTH FROM THE NEWS MEDIA. The news you watch, listen to and read is highly selective. Good news doesn't sell. 90% of the damage you see on tv was caused by Iraqis, not by US. All the damage you see to schools, hospitals, power generation facilities, refineries, pipelines and water supplies, as well as shops, museums, and semi-public buildings (like hotels) was caused either by the Iraqi army in its death throes or Iraqi civilians looting and rioting.

    The day after the war was over, there was nearly 0 power being generated in Iraq. 45 days later, 1/3 of the total national potential of 8000 MW is up and running. Downed power lines are being repaired and were about 70% complete when I left. There is water purification where little or none existed before...this time to everyone. Oil is 95% of the Iraqi GNP.

    In order for Iraq to survive, it must sell oil. All the damage to the oil fields was done by the Iraqi army or looters. The 14 story office building of the Southern Iraq Oil Company in Basra was torched by Baathist, destroying all of the books, records and computers of the company. Today, the refinery at Bayji is at 75% of capacity. The crude pipeline between Kirkuk and Bayji has been repaired, though the Baathist keep trying to disrupt it.

    If we are doing all this for the people, why are they shooting us? The general population isn't. By my sample, 90% are glad we came and the majority doesn't want us to leave for some time to come, but there are still plenty of bad guys, the Baathists who lived well under Saddam. The thugs of the old regime still hope to return to power, and there are plenty of them, mostly located in Sunni areas. Then too, Saddam, in the Ramadan amnesty, let every murderer, butcher, rapist and violent criminal loose on his own people. There are interests, including organized crime, with a desire for anarchy and profit. There are disruptive forces from Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria.

    We saw poverty on a scale that I have never witnessed except in pictures of Haiti. I saw one little girl: she was slender, very pretty, about 5 or 6 years old, in a tattered dress with a broad red hem, part of which was torn and dragging in the dirt. She would touch her heart and make hungry gestures. She was duplicated a thousand times during the journey. The poverty in Iraq is a sharp contrast to the lives of Saddam and his sons. Saddam alone, not counting Ouday and Qusay and the leading Baathists, had 43 palaces. We are using several for civilian government. The one where OPCA is located is the main republican palace occupying over 2000 acres. It is a monument to narcissism, four 25 foot tall heads of Saddam decorate the front of the palace, and his portraits and statues are everywhere.

    We went to a second palace by the airport. It is surrounded by a lake which was created by diverting the Euphrates water which limited agricultural irrigation downstream. His palace in Basra was used by him only once I am told. Basra functions fairly well except for the power. There are 6 lines into the city, but it does not have a standard power grid. Saddam used power and other essentials as a method of punishing a city of 3 million! He would cut power for days to punish them. When I tell you the temperatures there, you will understand how bad that was. I am told that in high summer, it will hit 155 degrees, even 160!

    He has made no investments in this area which is overwhelmingly Shiite. He has few friends there. Consequently, it is easier for the Brits to govern, unlike Baghdad. And they are doing a good job of it. They are doing it at the moment by using pre- war personnel, perhaps contrary to Brenner's de-Baathification order. The problem with Brenner's policy is that it removes almost all of the people who ran the country. The Brits have been pragmatic: they have largely left the judges and police in place and are removing them as they see the need and they are able to train and replace the bad ones.

    That was our problem in Haiti, we trained a police force but did not put the judiciary in place so that the jails just filled up and then overcrowding forced criminals out. And the Haitian police have largely quit. (Ouday had a solution to overcrowding, when he received a complaint of overcrowding, he went to the prison and personally shot every 3rd prisoner.)

    We want to keep Iraq a secular state, and that will present some difficulties as there is no real concept of separation of church and state in Islam. Attaturk was a true revolutionary where this was concerned. The tribal and sahria (religious) courts are functioning, and if we don't get a move on, they will replace the civil and criminal courts. I find it difficult to explain how differently they think. I remember telling Mike, "I don't think we are on the same page with this fellow." Mike said, "Don, I am not sure we are in the same library."

    For a large percentage of the Iraqi people, and they are most adamant, family and tribe are everything, religion and state are one and the same. That they don't understand us is our biggest problem in the middle east. They perceive our way of life as a threat to theirs,...and it is. They fear the modern world is about to run over them, destroying family life as they know it, educating and freeing their women, forbidding honor killing...coca colas, jeans, lack of parental respect and respect for the old ways and religion. And to defend their way of life and their religion, they will die with the same fervor with which the Christians marched to the lions. In their fear of western life, some will fight and kill us; but I remain convinced that the majority want a secular society and the best that the west has to offer. We are not hated by everyone.

    Of the hundreds I talked to, the overwhelming majority thanked us for being there. Hundreds of adults and children on the roads waved and smiled as we passed by. We went to the law school with about 300 students, about ten of whom were female. There we were, three Americans and they wanted us to fix their school and they thought we could. They thought Americans could do anything. They were like children expecting the genie from the bottle to immediately gratify their needs. The law students were the finest example of hope that I encountered. They told me that the future was theirs and that they needed and wanted our help. I believe we should be paying more attention and giving greater effort to restoring higher education. These law students are the immediate future.

    When we met with them a week later, they had formed a protective association, a bus for transportation, found a disused grammar school for classes, and got their assistant dean to round up some professors who were teaching them. Still they need help and I am trying to get some help for them from our law schools. LSU has refused, Seton Hall and Rutgers have promised to help; I have not contacted Tulane, Loyola or Southern yet.

    Upon returning to Baghdad, I went to the Ministry of Justice to review the situation in the south. I took advantage of the situation and said the following: "I have read a little of your history. I know you are a proud people who have risen from the ashes in the past, so I must tell you that I am saddened and disappointed. I have talked to hundreds of you over the past five weeks, almost everyone educated and privileged. What I have heard is what you want from us, how the Americans have to fix this and give you money and equipment, protect you from you own. The only adults planning on the future were those law students in Basra who had lost everything - their books, their desks, their records, their school. And they were doing something about it on their own. You need to do some of these things for yourselves. If you are depending on us to do everything, you are going to be sadly disappointed." I got a few nods from the judges, but the translator said to me: "Thank you. I have been waiting for someone to tell them that."

    Our soldiers, God love them and keep them; they smiled every time I got a chance to talk to them. They want to come home, but I did not hear one word of complaint nor a question as to why they were there. This is boring, HOT, dirty, and dangerous work. They stand in 120 plus degrees in full body armor. They are amazing. Their entertainment was largely self-generated; boredom doesn't stop when they stand down. Write a letter, send a note or email; send a book, cd, tape, or magazine; do something. Thank you.

    http://globalspecops.com/view.html
     
  2. Cohen

    Cohen Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    10,751
    Likes Received:
    6
    Posted last night and no responses yet? Why is that...?



    ...
    Despite my initial opposition to the war, I am now convinced, whether we find any weapons of mass destruction or prove Saddam sheltered and financed terrorists, absolutely, we should have overthrown the Baathists, indeed, we should have done it sooner.

    What changed my mind? When we left mid June, 57 mass graves had been found, one with the bodies of 1200 children. There have been credible reports of murder, brutality and torture of hundreds of thousands of ordinary Iraqi citizens. There is poverty on a monumental scale and fear on a larger one. That fear is still palpable. I have seen the machines and places of torture.

    I will tell you one story told to me by the Chief of Pediatrics at the Medical College in Basra. It was one of the most shocking to me, but I heard worse. One of Saddam's security agents was sent to question a Shiite in his home. The interrogation took place in the living room in the presence of the man's wife, who held their three month old child. A question was asked and the thug did not like the answer; he asked it again, same answer. He grabbed the baby from its mother and plucked its eye out. And then repeated his question. Worse things happened with the knowledge, indeed with the participation, of Saddam, his family and the Baathist regime.

    Thousands suffered while we were messing about with France and Russia and Germany and the UN. Every one of them knew what was going on there, but France and the UN were making millions administering the food for oil program. We cannot, I know, remake the world, nor do I believe we should. We cannot stamp out evil, I know. But this time we were morally right and our economic and strategic interests were involved. I submit that just because we can't do everything doesn't mean that we should do nothing. We must have the moral courage to see this through, to do whatever it takes to secure responsible government for the Iraqi people. Having decided to topple Saddam, we cannot abandon those who trust us.

    I fear we will quit as the horrors of war come into our living rooms. Look at the stories you are getting from the media today. The steady drip, drip, drip of bad news may destroy our will to fulfill the obligations we have assumed. WE ARE NOT GETTING THE WHOLE TRUTH FROM THE NEWS MEDIA. The news you watch, listen to and read is highly selective. Good news doesn't sell.
    ...



    As mentioned here many times, both 'sides' here seem to prefer to tow the company line. Make thing simple... black-and-white, Republican-and-Democrat.

    Well this war was not 'simply' right or wrong. And discussions about the Administration's actions and the 'rightness' of the war are 2 related, but separate issues.
     
    #2 Cohen, Sep 30, 2003
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2003
  3. Cohen

    Cohen Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    10,751
    Likes Received:
    6
  4. rimrocker

    rimrocker Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Messages:
    22,317
    Likes Received:
    8,172
    I don't doubt that some things are improving in some parts of the country, but as long as stories like this keep popping up over the way the administration is handling things, the rosy vision of the reconstruction will be clouded. To put it another way, we're driving a Yugo that costs as much as a Ferrari. The Yugo will get us there eventually, but did we really need a Yugo at that cost and what could we be driving if we had just shopped around and not become fixated beyond reason on the Yugo?
    ___________________________

    Washington Insiders' New Firm Consults on Contracts in Iraq
    By DOUGLAS JEHL

    Published: September 30, 2003


    WASHINGTON, Sept. 29 — A group of businessmen linked by their close ties to President Bush, his family and his administration have set up a consulting firm to advise companies that want to do business in Iraq, including those seeking pieces of taxpayer-financed reconstruction projects.

    The firm, New Bridge Strategies, is headed by Joe M. Allbaugh, Mr. Bush's campaign manager in 2000 and the director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency until March. Other directors include Edward M. Rogers Jr., vice chairman, and Lanny Griffith, lobbyists who were assistants to the first President George Bush and now have close ties to the White House.

    At a time when the administration seeks Congressional approval for $20.3 billion to rebuild Iraq, part of an $87 billion package for military and other spending in Iraq and Afghanistan, the company's Web site, www.newbridgestrategies.com, says, "The opportunities evolving in Iraq today are of such an unprecedented nature and scope that no other existing firm has the necessary skills and experience to be effective both in Washington, D.C., and on the ground in Iraq."

    The site calls attention to the links between the company's directors and the two Bush administrations by noting, for example, that Mr. Allbaugh, the chairman, was "chief of staff to then-Gov. Bush of Texas and was the national campaign manager for the Bush-Cheney 2000 presidential campaign."

    The president of the company, John Howland, said in a telephone interview that it did not intend to seek any United States government contracts itself, but might be a middleman to advise other companies that seek taxpayer-financed business. The main focus, Mr. Howland said, would be to advise companies that seek opportunities in the private sector in Iraq, including licenses to market products there. The existence of the company was first reported in The Hill, a Congressional newspaper.

    Mr. Howland said the company was not trying to promote its political connections. He said that although Mr. Allbaugh, for example, had spent most of his career "in the political arena, there's a lot of cross-pollination between that world and the one that exists in Iraq today."

    As part of the administration's postwar work in Iraq, the government has awarded hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts to American businesses. Those contracts, some without competitive bidding, have included more than $500 million to support troops and extinguish oil field fires for Kellogg, Brown & Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton, which Vice President Dick Cheney led from 1995 until 2000.

    Of the $3.9 billion a month that the administration is spending on military operations in Iraq, up to one-third may go to contractors who provide food, housing and other services, some military budget experts said. A spokesman for the Pentagon said today that the military could not provide an estimate of the breakdown.

    Administration officials, including L. Paul Bremer III, the top American official in Iraq, have said all future contracts will be issued only as a result of competitive bidding. Already, the Web site for the Coalition Provisional Authority, http://cpa-iraq.org/, lists 36 recent solicitations, including those for contractors who might sell new AK-47 assault rifles, nine-millimeter ammunition and other goods for new army and security forces.

    New Bridge Strategies was established in May and recently began full-fledged operations, including opening an office in Iraq, its officials said. They added that a decision by the Governing Council of Iraq to allow foreign companies to establish 100 percent ownership of businesses in Iraq, an unusual arrangement in the Mideast, had added to the attractiveness of the market.

    Mr. Howland is a principal of Crest Investment in Houston and was president of American Rice, once a major exporter to Iraq. Richard Burt, ambassador to Germany in the Reagan administration and a former assistant secretary of state, and Lord Powell, a member of the British House of Lords and an important military and foreign-policy adviser to Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, are among the 10 principals.

    Mr. Allbaugh, the chairman, spent most of his career in Texas politics before Mr. Bush appointed him to head the federal disaster agency. Mr. Allbaugh, who now heads his own consulting firm here, did not return calls to his office today.

    Mr. Rogers, the vice chairman who was a deputy assistant to the first President Bush and an executive assistant to the White House chief of staff, is also vice chairman of Barbour Griffith & Rogers, one of the best-connected Republican lobbying firms in the capital. Mr. Rogers founded it in 1991 with Haley Barbour, who became chairman of the Republican National Committee and is now running for governor of Mississippi.

    Shortly after leaving the White House, Mr. Rogers was publicly rebuked by the first President Bush after he signed a $600,000 contract to represent a Saudi, Sheik Kamal Adham, who was a main figure under scrutiny in a case that involved the Bank of Commerce and Credit International. Mr. Rogers canceled his contract to represent the sheik, former head of Saudi intelligence.

    Mr. Griffith, a director of the new company, is chief operating officer of Barbour Griffith & Rogers, which he joined in 1993. He was special assistant for intergovernmental affairs to the first President Bush and later worked under him as an assistant secretary of education.

    Until November, Mr. Rogers's wife, Edwina, was associate director of the National Economic Council at the White House. Reached by telephone today, Mr. Rogers said he did not want to speak for the record and referred a reporter to Mr. Howland.

    The company Web site says the company was "created specifically with the aim of assisting clients to evaluate and take advantage of business opportunities in the Middle East following the conclusion of the U.S.-led war in Iraq."
    ________________
    And a bonus column from Krugman...

    Who's Sordid Now?
    By PAUL KRUGMAN

    It's official: the administration that once scorned nation-building now says that it's engaged in a modern version of the Marshall Plan. But Iraq isn't postwar Europe, and George W. Bush definitely isn't Harry Truman. Indeed, while Truman led this country in what Churchill called the "most unsordid act in history," the stories about Iraqi reconstruction keep getting more sordid. And the sordidness isn't, as some would have you believe, a minor blemish on an otherwise noble enterprise.

    Cronyism is an important factor in our Iraqi debacle. It's not just that reconstruction is much more expensive than it should be. The really important thing is that cronyism is warping policy: by treating contracts as prizes to be handed to their friends, administration officials are delaying Iraq's recovery, with potentially catastrophic consequences.

    It's rarely mentioned nowadays, but at the time of the Marshall Plan, Americans were very concerned about profiteering in the name of patriotism. To get Congressional approval, Truman had to provide assurances that the plan would not become a boondoggle. Funds were administered by an agency independent of the White House, and Marshall promised that priorities would be determined by Europeans, not Americans.

    Fortunately, Truman's assurances were credible. Although he is now honored for his postwar leadership, Truman initially rose to prominence as a fierce crusader against war profiteering, which he considered treason.


    Iraq's reconstruction, by contrast, remains firmly under White House control. And this is an administration of, by and for crony capitalists; to match this White House's blithe lack of concern about conflicts of interest, you have to go back to the Harding administration. That giant, no-bid contract given to Halliburton, the company that made Dick Cheney rich, was just what you'd expect.

    And even as the situation in Iraq slides downhill, and the Iraqi Governing Council demands more autonomy and control, American officials continue to block local initiatives, and are still trying to keep the big contracts in the hands of you-know-who.

    For example, in July two enterprising Middle Eastern firms started offering cellphone service in Baghdad, setting up jury-rigged systems compatible with those of neighboring countries. Since the collapse of Baghdad's phone system has been a major source of postwar problems, coalition authorities should have been pleased.

    But no: the authorities promptly shut down the services. Cell service, they said, could be offered only by the winners in a bidding process — one whose rules, revealed on July 31, seemed carefully designed to shut out any non-American companies. (In the face of strenuous protests the rules were revised, but still seem to favor the usual suspects.) Oddly, the announcement of the winners, originally scheduled for Sept. 5, keeps being delayed. Meanwhile, only Paul Bremer and his people have cellphones — and, thanks to the baffling decision to give that contract to MCI, even those phones don't work very well. (Aside from the fact that its management perpetrated history's biggest accounting fraud, MCI has no experience in building cell networks.)

    Then there's electricity. One reason Iraq still faces blackouts is that local experts and institutions were excluded from the repair business. Instead, the exclusive contract was given to Bechtel, whose Republican ties are almost as strong as Halliburton's. And if a recent story in The Washington Post is accurate, Bechtel continues to ignore pleas by Iraqi engineers for essential spare parts.

    Meanwhile, several companies with close personal ties to top administration officials have begun brazenly offering their services as facilitators for companies seeking Iraqi business. The former law firm of Douglas Feith, the Pentagon under secretary who oversees Iraq reconstruction, has hung out its shingle. So has another company headed by Joe Allbaugh, who ran the Bush-Cheney campaign in 2000 and ran FEMA until a few months ago. And a third entrant is run by Ahmad Chalabi's nephew.

    There's a moral here: optimists who expect the administration to get its Iraq policy on track are kidding themselves. Think about it: the cost of the occupation is exploding, and military experts warn that our army is dangerously overcommitted. Yet officials are still allowing Iraqi reconstruction to languish, and the disaffection of the Iraqi public to grow, while they steer choice contracts to their friends. What makes you think they will ever change their ways?
     
  5. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    124,138
    Likes Received:
    33,024
    The sound of silence from the left as the truth is being told.


    TYPICAL !!


    DD
     
  6. GATER

    GATER Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2000
    Messages:
    8,325
    Likes Received:
    78
    No inferences are expressed or implied, but for perspectives sake...

    Donald Ellsworth Walter was born in Jennings, LA in 1936 and graduated from the LSU Law School in 1964. His professional career includes:

    U.S. Army, 1957-1958
    Private practice, Lake Charles, Louisiana, 1964-1969
    U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Louisiana, 1969-1977
    Private practice, Shreveport, Louisiana, 1978-1985

    In May 1985, Atty. Walter was nominated to the 5th Federal Circuit Court, Louisiana Western Branch, Shreveport Division by then President Ronald Reagan. The Senate approval came in July 1985. (House of Reps are not needed for this appointment). Judge Walter assumed senior status on November 30, 2001.

    In July 2002, Judge Walter was a participant in a seminar entitled "Globilization and the Environment".

    http://www.free-eco.org/agendas/agenda_seminar_law_july23_2002.html

    Walter was one of 12 persons sent to Iraq by the US Department of Justice which is headed by Atty. General John Ashcroft. In addition to making legal opinions, Federal Judges also grant wiretaps.

    As of Jan. 7, 2003, S. Maurice Hicks, Jr had been nominated as the replacement for Judge Walters. Not sure if Hicks has been confirmed, but as of this date "retired' Judge Walter is still listed as the Senior Judge on the website of the Shreveport Division.

    As nearly as I can tell, Judge Walter is 1 of 7 judges in the Western Divison of the 5th District court.

    http://www.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/cmsd2002.pl
     
  7. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    26,925
    Likes Received:
    2,265
    Yes, I noted that as well. This story doesn't fit with their Bush-hating tactics, so they ignore it.
     
  8. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    42,794
    Likes Received:
    3,005
    Yeah, they're in the thread in which it was just posted that the Justice Department has launched a preliminary investigation into the leak of a CIA agent's name. Typical liberals paying attention to what's going on in their world.
     
  9. GATER

    GATER Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2000
    Messages:
    8,325
    Likes Received:
    78
    With all respects, how much actual weight should one retired judges opinion hold? What aspect of a judicial appointment relegates one to a position of "all knowing"? Might you be a subscriber to "the ends justifies the means" philosophy?

    I may have it wrong, but I hear few voices expressing cut and run. I do hear many learned voices resisiting the request for an open blank checkbook for Iraqi reconstruction.
     
  10. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    58,948
    Likes Received:
    36,507
    Well, I for one am extremely upset. As a card carrying America Hater, I only want to see more human misery and suffering perpeutated on a global scale. :mad:
     
  11. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    26,925
    Likes Received:
    2,265
    Their world is right. A fabricated controversy. I've already weighed in on that thread and appropriately dismissed it.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now