I was convinced that when Joey Dorsey was drafted, it was an attempt to get a less expensive, better rebounding version of Chuck Hayes. I think the Rockets love Chuck and trust him a lot but DM is always trying to get better with players that have a lot of value. Dorsey has mostly been a disappointment until the last couple of games. I think Dorsey has a lot to show the Rockets in the next few months or the team will cut him from the Roster since his contract for next season is not guaranteed. But if he proves his worth it might make Chuck expendable and give the Rockets almost a million and a half in savings. So here is my comparison from what I have seen so far. Height Chuck Hayes 6’6” Joey Dorsey 6’8” Edge – Joey Dorsey Rebounding Chuck Hayes 6 RPG is not a good rebounder and probably never will be. Joey Dorsey 4.4 RPG reminds me a lot of Charles Barkley (in his youth) rebounding the ball. He looks to be ok on the defensive side but outstanding on the offensive side. What we know is that Joey Dorsey has been a rebounding machine at every level of play and it looks no different in the Pros. Edge – Joey Dorsey. Chuck has never been a very good rebounder mainly due to his size and limited athleticism. Joey knows how to block out and has really good hops and athleticism. Shot Blocking Chuck Hayes .5 BPG Joey Dorsey .2 BPG Edge – Joey Dorsey. This one is kind of hard to judge because we have not really seen enough of Dorsey to know if he consistently has the timing to get blocks on a consistent basis. What we do know is that he has a great wing span, great hops. We also know that Chuck has never and will never be a legit shot blocking threat mainly due to his limited athleticism. Strength Chuck has tremendous lower body strength which allows him to get and maintain position on defense. Joey looks like the terminator in a basketball uniform and seems to easily get position in the paint. He not only has tremendous lower body strength but tremendous upper body strength. Edge – Joey Dorsey. Both players are really strong but I just think Dorsey is on another level than most people. Man Defense Chuck has proven he is a great man on man defender in the post. He has great lower body strength that allows him to hold his position or dislodge much bigger players to move them away from the basket. Chuck is great at taking charges has active hands and can step out on the court to cover his man when facing up. Dorsey still has a lot to prove in this area I think. He still looks a little lost at times but he does have great strength. He still needs to prove that he can stay out of foul trouble. His technique is still way behind Chucks. Edge – Chuck Hayes Help Defense Joey Dorsey just seems to have superior quickness which allows him to leave his man in the paint to provide a legitimate weak side shot blocking threat and still have the ability to get back. This is one area that Rockets have sorely needed all year long. There has been no one on the team that could cover for the lack of defense by Luis or Carl in the paint. Joey looks like he might be able to do this. Chuck is a great man to man defender but really offers no weak side shot blocking. Edge – Joey Dorsey. Offense Chuck has proven that he can score at a high percentage in the paint but he has limited size, can not create his own shot and he does not have the hops to get high enough to go over people to dunk. He has proven that he is more than a competent passer and a hard worker on the offensive glass for put backs. Joey has not shown that he is as good of a passer as Chuck. His shots from the paint do not look any prettier than Chucks but his percentage is good because his limited opportunities are mostly from offensive put backs. Joey does not look to be as good as a passer as Chuck and he still looks lost at times. He is a terrific offensive rebounder which extends the possession. Dorsey does have great hops and enough strength to dunk over or through defenders. Edge – Even. Neither player is an offensive juggernaut. Both will get most of their points off of put backs. Chuck is a superior passer and is seldom lost on the floor. Dorsey frequently looks lost on the offensive end but makes up for it by really crashing the offensive boards. Trust Dorsey is just starting to earn playing time. Trust is what has kept him off of the floor. He has a hard time staying out of foul trouble and is frequently out of position. Chuck Hayes has earned the trust of two Coaching Staffs. He knows his role, where his position on the floor is at all times and rarely makes a mistake. Edge – Chuck Hayes. More than anything this is what keeps Chuck on the team and on the floor. The team just trusts him. Nothing spectacular, just a good man on man defender in the paint and he is always in the right position. Maybe Dorsey will be able to start earning more trust with more playing time. Value Joey Dorsey $881,000 Joey is scheduled to make less than a million a year un-guaranteed next season and only a million the following season. Chuck Hayes $2,147,750 Chuck is scheduled to make $2,334,125 next season if the Rockets pick up his option. Edge – Chuck Hayes, Just based on the amount of production that the Rockets get from Hayes vs. what they pay him. If Joey Dorsey steps up and proves he can be as reliable on Defense as Hayes and can keep himself out of foul trouble then I think the pendulum swings the other way by quite a bit. I think the Rockets would love to save themselves 1.4 million dollars in salary next year if they can just trust Joey to stay out of foul trouble and continue to be dependable on defense. Summary: Chuck is what Chuck is. He is never going to be a great all around player. All Chuck will ever be is a dependable defensive player that knows his place on the team. There is nothing wrong with that. Joey Dorsey IMO is at a cross roads. He has the strength, athleticism, rebounding ability and defensive ability IMO to be a poor mans Dennis Rodman. The only question is does he have the work ethic to get to that level? I think these next two months are crucial for him because if he can prove to the Rockets that he is capable of staying on the floor and playing at a level close to what he did in Memphis then he could be back next season. If not then I think there is a very real chance that this could be his last season on an NBA roster.
Chuck Hayes not a good rebounder? Maybe not from the center position where he obviously doesn't belong. But alongside Yao he was excellent.
Dorsey's a much better rebounder in traffic. Dorsey might block more shots, but I think he's basically on Landry's level as far as that goes (so, not a significant difference). Chuck's individual defense and help defense is leaps and bounds better.
Help defense is where we disagree. And I am talking in the paint because Chuck offers no weak side help in the paint to cover Luis or Carl's mistakes. In the Memphis game we consistently saw Joey coming over from the weak side to help on defense. Like you I think Hayes is a much better overall defender and has a proven track record.
Here are a few categories you left out where Chuck eats Dorsey alive: Basketball IQ Positioning/footwork Leadership Passing Stealing: VERY important because Chuck KNOWS he won't be a good shotblockers so he's perfected the art of stripping the ball before it goes up. Nevermind that Chuck Hayes is a TREMENDOUS per-minute rebounder. Despite all this, I think that Dorsey and Chuck should split minutes the rest of the way as long as Dorsey is performing well - if he's able to be consistent for the rest of the season, THEN we can consider making him a rotation player on a contender in the future.
Dorsey doesn't really have to be "better" than Hayes to replace him. If he performs serviceably, then Morey can easily ship out Hayes if the the right deal comes along.
I actually touched on most of that. - I said Chuck is rarely out of position and Dorsey is frequently out of position. - I said Chuck is great at taking charges and has active hands (gets his hands on a lot of balls, deflections, steals etc...) - I said Chuck is more than a competent passer
Dorsey is no eraser,but his timing on blocked shots is better. His length gives him an advantage here as well.
Acturally, Dorsey made several good passes in yesterday game. But I agree with the other parts. Dorsey is still in his rookie contract. It is not fair to compare him with Chuck Wagon.
Chuck will always be a better defender than Dorsey just because of his IQ. Sad to say it but its true...
i dont believe dorsey is even 6'8, he's about as tall as chuck i believe...maybe has half an inch on him..
Joey makes a significant difference and I think he should get the majority of the center position time during 4th quarters but you're right I don't think he has built the trust Chuck has. In the 4th quarter I was seeing rebounds Joey could have gotten, shots he would have changed. I only saw a few post up moves defended by Chuck but those post up shots we taken away by Chuck's defense. Chuck has good box out skills but he doesn't have the height or jumping ability to get a good number of rebounds.
I'm pissed that I have missed the last two games and have not seen what Dorsey has been doing. It must be pretty special because had this thread been started three days ago the OP would have been blasted into oblivion for even comparing Joey to Chuck.
Agree, alot of people are playing out of position and being asked to do more than their skills allow them to do this season. Its difficult to judge or compare. I do think Dorsey can be an excellent rebounder in the pros, he just needs to get mental side of the game down.
although chuck is a great defender, i think dorsey give us more of what we need on defense as a whole, if he can stay away from silly mistakes....my biggest issue is their role on offense...pump faking an entry pass to either is laughable...defense knows it's not happening, no threat AT ALL. For dorsey to be in there over chuck he needs to prove he can take an entry pass and make a good move. Now he doesnt need to be Landry downt here, but he needs to show the D he's an option, and capable of making a move. if e can do that then he needs more time than chuck.
Even though Dorsey looks like the hulk, I would still give the strength edge to Chuck. He gets position on defense and no one can move him. How else do you think he is able to gaurd players so much taller than he? On footwork alone? Haven't you heard? Chuck is an imovable force. :grin:
I'm not saying one is better than the other or that Dorsey should start or anything like that. I'm just trying to give a comparison of the two based on what I have seen. Joey has in no way proven enough to be viewed in the same light as Chuck but if he works out he could very well make Chuck expendable going into next season based on salary and potential. I intentionally called this thread a comparison of the two and not Chuck vs. Joey because that is not the intent.
