It was a different era. Its impossible to compare the two. Zeke's era was rough and physical. No blood, no foul. Not sure if Paul would be tough enough for that. He definitely wouldnt get free throws by flopping. This era is too SOFT. Isiah would kill every pg out there. We're comparing nails and candy canes.
Pathetic. This is everyones golden boy? A guy who hits the opposition in the berries when he gets frustrated. Probably got free throws on both of those plays too.
I agree with a lot of your posts but I'm gonna have to disagree with this one. I can agree that there can be a legitimate argument as to who's better thus far but to say that Chris Paul is better than Zeke ever was is crazy talk. The fact of the matter is Thomas put up nearly 20ppg 9.3 apg and 1.9 steals per game over the course of 13 Seasons . If CP3 continues at his current rate and barring any major setbacks like injuries or general decline due to age he certainly has a chance to match or beat that but achieving numbers similar to that over the course of 13 seasons is going to be an extremely tough task. Also the fact that Isiah won 2 championships in itself is an amazing feat considering how hard it is to actually win just one. If we were to use your argument and say Isiah's first championship is "almost tainted" then surely our 94 Championship is rotten correct? By your logic I'm pretty positive everyone outside the City of Houston would say the Bulls would've won had MJ not been on a hiatus. To go further they (Thomas and Bad Boy Pistons) defeated an extremely talented up and coming loaded Blazer team lead by Drexler and co. the very next year. The more I think about it the more CP3 tries to emulate Isiah Thomas and the Hornets try to instill the Pistons "Bad Boy" image of the 80's and early 90's except everyone knows the Badboys were actually hard and not to be ****ed with but CP3 and the rest of the Hornets are softer than Hostess.
Only this year. His career average is 36%. Strangely, his best 3pt shooting season was his rookie year, a sizzling 42%.
What about if we just narrow the comparison to Isiah's first 4 years, since Paul is only 4 years into his career? Both entered the league at about the same age. Over Thomas's first 4 seasons, he averaged 20.7 ppg, 10.2 apg, 3.9 rpg, 2.3 stg, 3.9 tpg, 46% from the field, 29% from three, 74% on free throws, and a .52 TS%. He got to second round in the playoffs once. He was very durable, missing only 11 games in that stretch. In roughly similar minutes per game, Chris Paul has averaged 19.1 ppg, 9.8 apg, 4.7 rpg, 2.4 spg, 2.6 tpg, 47% from the field, 34% from three, 85% on free throws, and a .57 TS%. He's also gotten to the second round once. Those numbers look comparable to me. People will bring up harder perimeter defense in Thomas's defense. But perimeter players didn't start playing really physical defense until the late 80s, early 90s with the Bad Boy Pistons and Riley's Knicks. Before that point, what did we see? Just take a look at the league average efficiency at that time. It was at an all time high in the early to mid 80s, and started to drop in the late 80s and early 90s. In Paul's defense, I could bring up the huge disparity in pace which inflates Isiah's numbers. Isiah's teams got about 18% more possessions per minute than Chris Paul's Hornet teams. For a PG that handles on the floor and would, one assumes, get his best scoring opportunities in transition, that's very favorable. I'll be very conservative and assume that Paul's number increase only 15% in that pace. In which case, Paul would average maybe 22 ppg, 11.3 apg, 5.4 rpg, 2.8 spg, and 3 tpg.
I'm a Paul defender here, so just to get your view on it...couldn't you argue that the slower pace for the Hornets is due to Paul, really? I think they would certainly run more if they had more pieces around him to do so, but I just don't see Paul as a run run run run run constantly type of PG. Clearly, he likes playing slower and in the halfcourt. Maybe as far as pace is concerned it would make more sense to compare overall league pace from Isiah's years to currently. If the league as a whole played faster back then, then it would make more sense to increase Paul's for an apples to apples comparison, right? But I agree with you. Paul and Isiah strike me as very comparable.
I think you misunderstood me. Chris Paul, RIGHT NOW, is better than Zeke was at his peak. That's what I meant. I took longevity (13 seasons) completely out of the comment. Obviously it will be a very long time before CP can even begin to compare his career to Zeke's. So far, CP has never had a team around him anywhere close to what Zeke had during the 5-6 year heyday of the Pistons. I stand by my comment that if you took Zeke and placed him on last year's and this year's Hornets with the exact same circumstances, they would be worse. CP has the ability to carry a team for stretches of a season. Zeke couldn't do that (and good for him he neve really needed to). I probably should have prefaced my earlier comments by saying that I think Zeke was an overrated player. He had a great career, but listening to people discuss his playing days, I think he's put higher on the totem pole than he belongs. I have felt this way a long time.
You guys still dont get it. Chris Paul can get 20-30 every night in this era yeah. Back when Isiah played you could put two hands on an offensive player. When you drove into the lane and got hammered, most of the time you didnt get the call. Does anyone remember basketball from those days? The most famous clip from that era is Jordan committing an offensive foul and shooting a jumper over Bryan Rusell. But guess what? In those days, that wasnt a foul. There was no flopping, and point guards didnt get 15 free throw attempts a game. Imagine Isiah in this era, No defender is allowed to touch you, if you drive into the lane and initiate contact with a big man, you go to the line to shoot two. If you flail your arms a little bit you get free throws. There are only about 4 teams that play ANY defense. Comparing lumberjacks and ballerinas.
Kevin Johnson shot 22 in a game aginst the Rockets in 1995. He missed his 22nd and that led to a timeout that led to Mario Elie's Kiss of Death 3ball.
Chris Paul is so SOFT. Hearing you guys compare him to one of the toughest guards in NBA history is laughable.
On toughness by itself, Zeke has CP beat by a country mile. No doubt about that. Despite the smile, Zeke had a very nasty attitude on the court that went back to his days at IU. Paul's attitude is more whiney than nasty.
I mean, Paul throws his body around with almost as much abandon as Iverson and Wade. So he isn't soft in a wimpy, I dont want to get my hands dirty kinda way. Its more of a: "I am going to get to the rim, but if you breathe on me and the ref don't call it, I am not going to be happy." I will say this for Paul, at least he hasnt attempted a 3 point shot while jumping away from the basket towards a defensive player who was trying to get away from him.
I just think, judging from these past 2 seasons, CP has been spectacular. The only PG to ever play on that level, going strictly by numbers, are all considered all-time greats. And, i don't even really like the guy (i don't dislike him like some of the past few mvp's) but i find it hard to deny how great he has played.
I'm glad you "get it". Clearly you're the one who understands--everyone else is an idiot. At any rate, I don't think you can say what Paul would or wouldn't have done in that era. If he knew he was gonna get hammered, maybe he'd have taken it to the hole anyway and finished. Maybe he'd have bulked up. Maybe he'd shoot a lot of midrange shots and still be successful. For you to say that he wouldn't be as good isn't fair, cause you just don't know. His game evolved based on the game as it's currently played, so that's what we have to judge him against. On a sidenote, you're talking about Isiah's time, and then you say "The most famous clip from that era" is Jordan/Byron Russell? (learn to spell his name if you're gonna use it) At least use something from Isiah's time frame, like Rodman throwing Pippen to the base of the basket while driving or something.
I don't see how you could say that because CP doesn't come close to playing with the reckless abandon of Wade and AI. Wade and AI will attack the basket and go as high in the air as they can to reach the rim, no matter what the consequences are. CP is much more calculated and careful about the contact he draws. He is an artist at grossly overacting after the smallest amount of contact, on the floor or in the air. One of the things he does that ticks me off the most is dribbling into the path of someone not even guarding him to draw a cheap foul. On a consistent basis, CP falls down to the floor to force the referee to blow the whistle when their is little contact. Every star player exaggerates contact. But at least Wade & AI also get smacked down hard on a regular basis. CP rarely gets clobbered because he usually doesn't put himself at that kind of risk very often.
Which is part of what makes him so impressive. You know another player who doesn't put himself at that kind of risk? Brandon Roy, who I know is a personal favorite of yours. Roy doesn't have a bag of tricks for getting extra calls for himself -- infuriating for the opponent, lovely for his teammates -- but like Paul he has this great poise and command of the ball. It's like those guys can get wherever they want, and they rely on an instinctive feel for the rhythms of the game to do so. I think Paul will go down as an all-time great. By that I mean a top 20 player, easy. It's not just the numbers, which are just insane. It's the manner in which he plays, the way he can get a good shot for himself or his teammates seemingly at will, that makes him special. I know he hasn't won anything on the big stage yet, but I think its just a matter of time. Players like him find a way to eventually be part of great teams.
