maybe i over-reacted. you get your news from chinese sources. so i can't blame you for the way you think. you can be rational and calm about this, because your media tells you it's no big deal. that your govt has done "all it can". but i tell you now, they have done nothing. not even as much as sent a SINGLE PERSON, a single mask, a single dollar's worth of supplies to taiwan. they have OK'ed a total of TWO WHO "experts" to help taiwan (so long as they don't talk with any health department officials, don't appear on tv, so long as they stay invisible). they have said that they're willing to "discuss", to "have symposiums and tele-conferences"... what the hell for? taiwan's medical system and expertise is 100 times better than china's. what good are discussions with incompetent idiots that let the outbreak to spread and infect our people in the first place? what good are tele-conferences when we need real international EXPERT help NOW, and China won't let the rest of the world send any! what good are letting our people attend a JUNE conference, when our patients would be DEAD by then? this outbreak should never had occured. if your govt had the decency to let taiwan know what it knew and covered up, we could have done far more to protect our people. but it didn't. even after bungling this, causing all this grief, your govt could have had the decency to let prompt, effective support to come from the WHO to Taiwan. It didn't. your govt could have let taiwanese officials join China's own discussions with the WHO, or at least shared the WHO information it received. It didn't. in the end, your govt could have at least had the conscience to recognise its failings. but it told the rest of the world with a straight face that it had done "all it can", and that "taiwan has already been taken care of". This, it did damn well. you say that i'm partisan, biased against China, bent on "separtism". i'll let you know that one of the most vocal critics "hating" China right now is the Chairman of the Pro-Unification KMT party, Lien Chan, and if you had taken the time to read the newspaper article i posted above, you'd see that one of the people most disgusted at Geneva with China's behavior, is Sun Guo-Hua, another one of your die-hard pro-Unification comrades. to be honest, i smell a lawsuit coming. i hope the Chinese govt doesn't have any holdings in the U.S., cuz they're gonna be all GONE.
ok. let me clarify this. firstly, I don't speak on behalf of the PRC government, although I used to be a citizen of PRC. secondly, the reason I implied some taiwan people don't like the fact they were born to be Chinese is that this is a fact. I've run across too many this kind of taiwan people. most of them just call themselves taiwanese as if taiwanese is a different race from Chinese. some of them just flat out deny they are Chinese in spite of their Chinese heritage. i don't know it's just because they don't want to have anything to do with Chinese government. thirdly, as for the question i asked Lil, it's not intended to be a racial statment. but i did imply that all Han people want to see a united China, be it PRC or POC. I can only understand his stance on taiwan's independencc if he belongs to some minority group. I do realize that People's Daily is run by Chinese government and not a very credible source in general. but in this particular case, i do believe that Chinese really did what they said they'd done to help taiwan with the SARS. i don't think Wu Yi would lie in the WHA meeting in front of the world. that's why I cited this source to prove that what Lil said "China has not done a single thing" is not true. of course, Lil later would say what China did is useless. but just because what China did is not what he wants doesn't mean that you can deny the fact they have done something. i would like to see your 20/more stories about China isn't helping or proof that China didn't do what they said they did. not reports from taiwan of course. I left China a long time ago. so don't worry i can't see them.
well. i've got news for you. i've got three housemates. all "Han" Chinese like myself, and NOT ONE wants to see a united China. we still speak chinese, eat chinese food, enjoy chinese novels and movies and art, practice chinese calligraphy, study chinese history and philosophy, sing chinese songs, share the joy of an accomplished chinese man like Yao Ming, but would we like a united China, ruled by your dictatorial regime? maybe when pigs fly over our dead bodies. you've been seriously misled by your education about this illusory consensus. If you had asked a typical Hong Kong man in 1997, or a typical Singaporean or Malaysian "Han" Chinese today, the answer would have been the same. Keep China's bloody grasping hands away. that's exactly what she did. She LIED! The truth was closer to "We did all we could to prevent Taiwan getting help"! believe what you will, but know that the U.S. Department of Health, Western media, and medical experts from around the world all scoffed at your foreign minister's shameless public lies. Tommy Thompson begged to differ. And even your pro-Unification friends in Taiwan were utterly disgusted. as a chinese, i expected you would be ashamed of such a hideous regime. but here you stand defending her. hell, you probably believe that China's been doing Tibet a favour by destroying her people and culture these 50 years too.
According to Wu Yi, China has done more than you mentioned. i don't know why you left them out and keep telling me China has done nothing. so did Chinese government let promt, effictive support to come from WHO to Guangdong, ShangXi, etc? did Chinese government let local governments in guangdong or ShangXi join the discussion with WHO? blame the Chinese government for covering-up if you want. they deserve the blame.but my point is that's the way the Chinese government works. the true reason that Taiwan can't get enough help and information from WHO through the Chinese government is Taiwan government has problems with it! The same Chinese government doesn't prevent other provinces like Guangdong and ShangXi from getting help from WHO. so you blame the politics not the Chinese government for the current situation in taiwan. people hate Chinese government for different reasons. i don't like it either. i didn't mean that all China haters are seperatists.
ok. "all of Han people" is a bold statement. I shold've said most of them. also when i said that, i didn't take Sigaporean or Malaysian or American "Han" Chinese into account. and it's not my education that makes me think that way. I formed this opinion based on the information i got, some of which from talking to taiwan people. as for your dictatorial regime comment, i think you missed some part of what i wrote. I didn't say the united China has to be controlled by the current communist government. but maybe you just want an independent taiwan whether the government across the strait is democratic or not. if that's the case, i'm cool with it although i disagree. it's not relevant to the topic. I have read those two CNN reports. I haven't seen the negative reaction you described towards China. point me to more sources. hell, one of reports even points out that Taiwan's campaign has its secret aganda! i'm not as proud of the Chinese government as you think im. but i think it can do something right and say something true. i don't want to get into the tibet issue with you. it's irrelevant.
Dude...I didn't say whether it was right or wrong so don't assume something. I was just saying why Taiwan isn't in the WHO. Christ man you treat me like I am some sort of shady character by calling me "this guy". Anyhow...I still don't get what the big deal about SARS is. 400+ people have been confirmed infected on an island of 23,000,000+ people. I know it has a high fatality rate at around 15%, but still look at the number of people infected compared to the number of people in the country.
The big deal, as I see it, is that it's spreading, we don't know for sure how, we don't really understand what it is, let alone how to cure it. That's pretty scary, and when you add to it that it is present in the most densley populated region of the world...
Well...we can't cure ANY virus. Vaccinations we have...cures we do not. But I do agree with what you said fueling the fear of SARS. However, I still believe it's more hype than anything else.
the big deal... is that these people didn't have to die. and now, thanks to your government's efforts, many more will. in America, this is murder, or at the very least criminal negligence. better tell China to start hiring some lawyers.
How many people have died from it? How many deaths were preventable? How is it even vaguely considered murder? China was not trying to kill people in Taiwan. Yes they were negligent, but what do you expect from the Chinese government? A well oiled machine that quickly responds to any problem in the best way possible? Anyhow...I'm really sure the Chinese government is gonna be brought up on international charges of criminal negligence
this is their defense? "well...yes, our negligence may have cost some lives in this situation..but it was merely negligence. we didn't mean it...sorry...oh, and by the way, we did work to keep you excluded from the WHO in the midst of this crisis." good luck defending that one...i couldn't look myself in the mirror if i tried to make that defense
Well if you consider this negligence such a big deal then there should be a movement to indict all of the people involved in the the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, thought reform, Three Gorges dam project, Tibet, and so on. My point is millions and millions have died from the Communist government and 40 or so people dying from SARS in Taiwan is not going to mean much to them or the world. If you want to file criminal charges against China for being ineffcient and negligent then you have do it against any other nation that has committed this same sort of negligence. Thats a pretty long list for something that has absolutely no precedent.
1. I'd love to indict them for the Cultural Revolution. Just give me the court and the time...I'll gladly take the case. 2. Who said we're filing criminal charges? So if we can't file criminal charges, we can't judge the actions of a government? Precedent? Who's talking about a court of law here? No one! These things are for only one court...the court of worldwide public opinion...and China's place therein.
Sorry...you weren't but Lil was and I thought you were defending his point for saying China is responsible for murder or at least criminal negligence and should start hiring some lawyers.
<a HREF="http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/EE23Ad06.html">WHO, do you believe?</a> <a HREF="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/23/international/asia/23CHIN.html?ex=1054267200&en=51b1d25f8e5d9221&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE">Some Say China's Response to SARS Has Been Too Heavy-Handed</a> <a HREF="http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/PEK137667.htm">Chinese doctor gagged for revealing SARS cover-up</a>
China's govt should be judged and condemned by the entire world, period. I think that much is established. Whether there is an actual lawsuit, depends on the forbearance of the Taiwanese victims. There is precedent. Go read up on recent lawsuits. 1) U.S. and to a lesser extent EU laws has leaned toward invalidating the concept of "State Immunity" (i.e. one nation's civil courts cannot try another nation's govt or its leaders) in favour of Universal Jurisdiction in international law, when considering cases with severe violations of human rights and crimes against humanity. 2) U.S. laws permit the trial of foreigners for human-rights abuses committed outside the United States against non-U.S. citizens, when these trials cannot be held or upheld elsewhere. 1 billion dollars of punitive damages for EVERY dead Taiwanese man sounds about right. That ought to teach the stupid Communist Party to respect human life.
if you're chinese and would like to see the nice show your govt put on in geneva and how it was reported on taiwanese news, this is a great link. this is the hottest thing going around taiwan's internet right now. http://www.cis.nctu.edu.tw/~gis89801/WHO.wmv (6MB) Windows Media Player http://www.cis.nctu.edu.tw/~gis89801/WHO.zip (6MB) for Download http://www.cis.nctu.edu.tw/~gis89801/WHOs.zip (600k) you can bet it's making china a lot of friends...
Transcript of News Clip: Wu Yi (Chinese Foreign Minister and Health Minister): I sternly point out that inviting Taiwan to participate in the WHO is ILLEGITIMATE, ILLOGICAL, and IMPROPER. The Chinese government will determinedly oppose any similar proposal. Tommy Thompon (U.S. Health Secretary): The need for effective public health exists among all peoples. That's why United States has strongly supported Taiwan's inclusion in efforts against SARS and beyond. ---------------- Taiwanese Reporter: Are you aware of the needs of Taiwan's 20 million people? Chinese Official: (emphatically) It's been rejected a long time ago!!! Another Chinese Official: (emphatically) Didn't you hear the decision of the Assembly? WHO CARES ABOUT YOU PEOPLE? ---------------- These were LITERAL translations, no embellishments or anything. Gotta give it to them for tact...
