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Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Mathloom, Jul 13, 2014.

  1. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    http://www.salon.com/2014/07/13/un_reports_77_of_gaza_dead_are_civilians/

    FYI this is a great video showing Israel's capabilities and the sick tactics the IDF has been using:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/PYwu-w_ilU8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Israel alleges that Hamas uses its civilians as shields. Nevermind that this does not justify a 77% ****-up rate. There is no evidence other than statements from the IDF itself about this happening. To believe that is akin to believing someone in a case of murder about their alibi without any further verification

    This video, from the complicit Israeli Foreign Ministry, is what has been paraded around as evidence that Hamas intentionally hides behind civilians. Watch it please, and you will find that the IFM has - similarly to its Hamas counterparts - stolen videos from different places to mend this together to fit their narrative. My favorite part of the video is where they show the mosque, and then they show the missiles as if it's in the same building. Just pausing for a moment reveals the intent of this video. Again, this is ignoring the fact that a video edited by the IDF does not constitute fair evidence that this is happening.

    Whether you believe that Israel is the aggressor or acting in self defense, even if we agree that the organization Hamas engages in terrorist actions, these things are inexcusable. I fail to understand how the IDF can target things so cleanly, and with the help of the US has made an iron dome which shoots unpredictable missiles out of the sky... but they cannot limit civilian casualties to less than 77%? If someone is sitting in a house and they receive a call from a military that is notorious for stealing land and homes that they should evacuate, is it reasonable for innocent civilian families to have to evacuate and go out into public where a maniac army is killing almost 8 civilians for each 2 terrorists it kills?

    This thread is particularly about Israel's strategy which is OFFICIALLY to engage in excessive revenge. That is official. It is documented. The entire board is in agreement that Hamas the organization is violent and routinely engages in criminal actions. We agree that Hamas fired the first rockets in this particular conflict. We agree that they fire these rockets with total disregard for civilian casualties in Israel and that this is a war crime.

    What must be discussed is the part that are not almost unanimously agreed, except by a tiny minority of posters. Israel should not be killing this many civilians with its capabilities and with the pretext it cites. It is simply unacceptable and we can no longer pretend that these operations are designed for self defense but without enough regard for the other HIGHLY predictable outcomes of these operations.

    We cannot accept that the IDF acts with the same moral standards as Hamas, because if that is the case then it is a terrorist organization as well. We must hold the IDF to a higher standard than an organization like Hamas, because otherwise they are all terrorists.
     
  2. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    what are they designed for if not that?
     
  3. trustme

    trustme Member

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    Genocide and land grabbing.
     
  4. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

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    lock this one up -- already have two Israel/Gaza/Hamas threads going...
     
  5. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    Genocide? Only one side is calling for annihilation of the other.

    Land grabbing? You mean the slivers of land Israel took after being attacked by all of its neighbors simultaneously?

    Israel operates with restraint no country under attack has ever shown. In ancient times if you attacked a neighbor, they would put entire cities to the sword to ensure you never did it again.

    The allies firebombed Dresden in WWII ffs.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/w...aflet-israeli-attackers-warn-gazans.html?_r=0

    Hey dumbasses, don't elect a terrorist organization to run your country, one that fires rockets at its neighbors. Hey dumbasses, when those neighbors fight back, and they go out of their way to warn you they are fighting back, don't form a human shield to protect the terrorists you elected. Unless you want to die.

    The group that most wants civilians in Gaza to die is Hamas, yet they are never blamed for the deaths.
     
  6. trustme

    trustme Member

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    Hmmm, I don't think it's genocide when you "call for annihilation." I'm pretty sure it depends on how many people you actually kill. And if you look at the numbers, this clearly points to Israel being the ones committing genocide.

    You're so wrong about the land grabbing it's not even funny. No need for me to comment on such a ridiculous statement. You need to educate yourself. LOL "slivers" of land.
     
  7. bobmarley

    bobmarley Contributing Member

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    Are you Islamic?
     
  8. dumbartonbass

    dumbartonbass Contributing Member
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    The use of the term "genocide" is a little heavy handed. Want to win people over to your cause? Don't use inflammatory rhetoric that isn't backed up by the policies or actions of the accused .
     
  9. houstonhoya

    houstonhoya Contributing Member

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    Fixed. I got u bigtexxxx
     
  10. Hydhypedplaya

    Hydhypedplaya Member

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    http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel...ians-gets-thousands-of-facebook-likes/5390230
    Israeli lawmaker Ayelet Shaked (left) published on Facebook a call for genocide of the Palestinians.

    It is a call for genocide because it declares that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and justifies its destruction, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.”

    It is a call for genocide because it calls for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who give birth to “little snakes.”

    If Shaked’s post does not meet the legal definition of a call for genocide then nothing does.

    Shaked is a senior figure in the Habeyit Hayehudi (Jewish Home) party that is part of Israel’s ruling coalition.


    You are sadly misinformed.

    Slivers of land, lmao.
    [​IMG]

    Either you're completely ignorant or you're being purposefully disingenuous with your outlandish statements. Either way, you're wrong.
    Does this look like ancient times or a war that was fought 70 years ago? Your failures at trying to draw moral equivalences for past actions of wrongdoing are noted though. Nice try.
    http://rt.com/news/172316-israel-knock-roof-video/
    The IDF practice of firing a missile at a civilian home to warn the occupants to leave the building before a larger attack, has been caught on film

    Even if Hamas is hiding behind civilians (which is despicable), it doesn't give Israel a green light to target civilian infrastructure. In fact, the laws of war prohibit it.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine
    Israel likes to portray itself as an island of democracy in a sea of authoritarianism. Yet Israel has never in its entire history done anything to promote democracy on the Arab side and has done a great deal to undermine it. Israel has a long history of secret collaboration with reactionary Arab regimes to suppress Palestinian nationalism. Despite all the handicaps, the Palestinian people succeeded in building the only genuine democracy in the Arab world with the possible exception of Lebanon. In January 2006, free and fair elections for the Legislative Council of the Palestinian Authority brought to power a Hamas-led government. Israel, however, refused to recognise the democratically elected government, claiming that Hamas is purely and simply a terrorist organisation.

    Basically, Israel only believes in democracy when it suits them. Instead of trying to promote democracy, they laughed at the concept and then started funding Fatah to form a takeover of the Gaza Strip. When that failed, they went to war again and killed 5x more civilians than terrorists. Guess you have no problem with that either.
     
  11. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    Don't be fooled by this BS about genocide. Genocide is the systematic targeting of a group of people.

    No more Palestinians call for this than Israelis. There are an equal proportion on both sides who want this, because a huge portion of the sides has been militarized and fed hatred. The settlers would commit genocide tomorrow if it didn't cost them their free homes in the same location of their sick fantasies. Same for ultra right wing Palestinians.

    What these clowns are talking about when they say genocide is Hamas' insistence on wiping the state of the Israel off the map. "Off the map" being a key indicator. The idea for them is to destroy the state, not kill all the people. This is a critical distinction. It is no different than the US actually wiping Iraq off the map, except in name only. They deemed that erasing Iraq's government was necessary given the their history, and envisioned a RADICALLY different post-Saddam Iraq where a group previously oppressed comes into power. In the same way, the United States has threatened to use nuclear force with Iran if Iran exercises its legal right to pursue nuclear capabilities. That's threatening actual genocide, and could not be stopped. These threats come from ultra right wing groups in all countries because ultra right wingers have a hard on for fake end of times-like wars.

    Hamas is not one whole side of the conflict, because that lumps all Palestinians everywhere in the world with Hamas. This is an incredible fallacy, and Palestinians have been amenable to a two-state solution as recently as when two Palestinian teens were randomly shot to death on video by Israeli forces. A few weeks after this massacre is over, they will be amenable to the idea again. The entire Arab world has also supported the two state solution and drafted a truce agreement - which Hamas rejected. It is absolutely clear that Hamas' only claim to Palestinian public opinion is by attacking opposition groups before its election. Also what hugely helped them is how the Israelis have made Hamas - again with predictable outcomes of their actions - ultra rich and in control of virtually the entire Gazan economy. No alternative was possible.

    This about the 77%. The 77% can clearly be avoided while taking actions directed at Hamas militants. Without question, the organization Hamas would do the same if it had the same capabilities. That is not a good thing for Israel - to engage in actions that would be replicated by people it calls terrorists.
     
  12. houstonhoya

    houstonhoya Contributing Member

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    It's an expansionist project. israel doesn't want peace. It wants more occupation and subjugation.

    The zionists have turned Gaza into a warehouse for human surplus. Simply because those humans are not Jewish.
     
  13. DaDakota

    DaDakota Contributing Member

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    They should just attack the UAE and get it over with.

    ;)

    DD
     
  14. houstonhoya

    houstonhoya Contributing Member

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    UN updated numbers:

    80% (168) of deaths have been civilian deaths.

    21% (36) of the murdered souls were children.
     
  15. Johndoe804

    Johndoe804 Member

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    As much as I'd like them to get along and be neighbors, I think the Israeli's are in the right here. I mean, they're forced by external pressures to prop up the Palestinian settlements in Israel, and in return, they're attacked by rockets? They can shoot the rockets out of the sky, but its expensive to defend themselves. I'm well-connected with Israeli's. They don't think that Gaza should be wiped out, but they're tired of being forced to provide aid to an area that is clearly hostile to them. They could solve the problem by implementing a policy of total war, but they don't because of the international backlash they'd receive. What sucks for them is that the conflict is a biproduct of the economic struggle between China/Russia and the US. Those people are suddenly well-armed with rockets because of external forces that don't agree with US foreign policy. Unfortunately for the civilians in Gaza and in Israel, they're caught in the crossfire, and there aren't any good options. Do you think this Israelis like being viewed as oppressors? Do you think they want rockets raining down on their cities? I'm not going to say that Israel has been a bastian for humanitarianism, but they don't have to keep running water, food and supplies coming into those areas.
     
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  16. AMS

    AMS Contributing Member

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    LOL, They took most of the water reservoirs and farmable land from the Palestinians. And then they allocate the meager amounts that the people of Gaza and West Bank get.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. mrdave543

    mrdave543 Contributing Member

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    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>WATCH: released footage of 3 airstrikes called off in real-time to protect Gaza's civilians <a href="http://t.co/b3FbqtL3C1">http://t.co/b3FbqtL3C1</a></p>&mdash; IDF (@IDFSpokesperson) <a href="https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/statuses/488585787592540161">July 14, 2014</a></blockquote>
    <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
     
  18. mrdave543

    mrdave543 Contributing Member

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    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>A rocket fired from Gaza hit electricity infrastructure in Israel that supplied power to Gaza, cutting power to about 70,000 people in Gaza.</p>&mdash; IDF (@IDFSpokesperson) <a href="https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/statuses/488388354820431872">July 13, 2014</a></blockquote>
    <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
     
  19. Johndoe804

    Johndoe804 Member

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    Like I said, I'm not saying they're a bastion of humanitarianism, but they don't have to allocate anything to Gaza or West Bank. To me, the fact that they keep any water, supplies, and so on coming into hostile areas shows that they don't want total war, and they've basically every right to pursue total war.
     
  20. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    They are obligated to by international law. Hamas and the PA aren't fully formed government(s) with full powers to take that repsonsibility and they haven't yet been fully allowed to. [IMHO]Were the Palestinians in possession of their own sovereignity, a "total" war would be likier to happenafter a chain of events like this, but also more likely to be prevented a lot earlier on.[/IMHO]
     

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