giddy, you can thank basso for throwing out that French Prime Minister's "quote" and derailing your thread. Then basso posts this: are you a republican or democrat? Senator Notbush, the DNC, and MoveOn would have you believe the greatest threat to world peace is the republican party. The rest of us pretty much feel like the fault lies with those who are trying to kill us. The democrats have conducted a campaign of unprecedented hate and divisiveness. Although there's ample room to critizise bush on several fronts, and i might otherwise be disposed to consider another candidate, it's the unrelenting hysteria of democrats that ultimately keeps my vote firmly in the bush column. Which I deliberately ignored, because it is such utter nonsense. Look, we don't know who did the car bombing, whether it was insurgents, "imported terrorists," some crazed off-shoot of the gumbo that makes up the huge number of Iraqi's, along with those who have flocked to the country to get a chance to take a crack at us in an environment unfavorable to our high-tech advantages. How would I know? For that matter, in the Iraqi's eyes, many of them see this as a direct result of Bush's invasion and occupation. Many of them see Saddam as they devil they knew, and the horror going on now as being the fault of a "new devil"... us. They know that thousands, not 35, as horrific as that is, but thousands of their fellow citizens, men, women and children, are dead because of this war. When the dead are friends, relatives, spouses, your own children... hell, you don't give a damn about "bringing Democracy to Iraq," you are mad beyond belief at who you see as responsible. Many of them see us as responsible. Many of them see us as the reason that these foreign terrorists are running around doing just the sort of terrible act you originally posted about. If they are Sunni, they see us as responsible for being suddenly at the bottom of the heap in their society. So many of them fight. They don't sit around and watch CNN, MSNBC, or Fox to get it all "explained" to them. It's a damned tragedy, that's what it is. Who is at fault? We have many opinions here. The Iraqi's have their own. Keep D&D Civil!!
Has any "insurgent" group condemned this? Isn't someone/group who seeks to kill both sides without discrimination, further without discrimination as to military status, just a terrorist de facto? I know what basso threw out. I didn't really see it as a derailment. I saw it as a strong support for my assertion. And I found that your greater concern with the authenticity of the statement rather than the criminality of the act that killed 35 innocent children who happened to be on the side that the murderers would purport to be struggling on behalf of a helluva lot more than confusing. At least you made an appearance; almost everyone else on your side of the argument just let it go. There is no subjectivity to this event. At least 35 miniature grave-markers will certify it's objective reality.
I wonder why you chose to ignore it? I, and many of my friends, actually believe this to be the case, and it's directly on point regarding the atrocity giddy started the thread with. Oh, democrats will pay lip service to how horrible it is, but in the next breath try and place some of the blame on the bush admonistration for invading and "inviting" the terrorists to iraq. i find this arguement truly reprehensible, and is simply one of the more extreme example of how four years of inflamatory rhetoric by the dnc has led to the complete abdication of any sense of moral outrage over any issue other than dick cheney's ties to haliburton. as i said, it's why i could never vote for kerry this year, although i might otherwise be predisposed to vote for someone other than W.
There is policy in some states where auto accidents aren't solely the fault of one car or the other all the time. They assign liability. One car may be 80% to blame, but the other car may have been able to avoid it if they had been more aware, etc. So that driver's insurance is assessed 20% of the blame. If Bush hadn't invaded those 35 kids would very likely have been alive today. Did Bush plant the bomb that killed them? No. But the fact still remains that much of the violence taking place now, would not have been taking place hadn't Bush chosen to go to war. Who are you to say that the DNC isn't morally outraged at this? They most certainly are and have condemened it. But they also dig below the surface to find out all the causes, and develop a fuller understanding of the problems. Anyone who only wants to look skin deep at the problem, and criticizes as uncaring, or unpatriotic those that look deeper, isn't doing these children, or future victims of these kind of horrible acts any favors.
Let's keep in mind that the Americans have killed at least 3500 kids since our latest war. By any estimate the US has killed more innocents this war than the resistance. Let's also keep in mind estimates of the 350,000 kids killed to date by the US wars against Iraq and our sanctions and destruction of the water and sewerage systems. Two wrongs don't make a right on either side, but it is good to keep reality in mind.
This is what I ignored, not what you quoted: The democrats have conducted a campaign of unprecedented hate and divisiveness. Although there's ample room to critizise bush on several fronts, and i might otherwise be disposed to consider another candidate, it's the unrelenting hysteria of democrats that ultimately keeps my vote firmly in the bush column. I'm a Democrat, and I don't see myself, or my party, that way. And I don't see what relevance that has to the topic giddy brought up, whether giddy thinks so or not. You brought up the "statement" by the French Prime Minister, not I. Having a curiosity about it's context, assuming he made it, would seem a logical response, and you've attempted to address it, which, though incomplete, I appreciate. And what is this "lip service to how horrible it is" bs? Just what am I supposed to do? These incidents happen with appalling frequency. I see "lip service" everyday from Bush, Cheney and company regarding their "take" on how America is doing at home and overseas. Forgive me if I find your take on my party a masterpiece of irony. I'm sure you wouldn't expect anything less. Frankly, I don't know how our people continue to work on these projects. From what I've read, recently, the journalists covering the war, the great majority, have been given tight restrictions by their news organizations to remain in "safe areas." The kidnappings and roadside bombs have had a chilling affect on what their editors will allow them to do. The same events have had an equally chilling affect on the projects that are being worked on by KBR, and the like. I'm surprised the event that lead to the 35 dead children, along with many injured, including our own troops, wasn't more secure than it turned out to be. It's hell over there. I don't care how Bush describes it, it's hell. I worry all the time about a close relative I have who's working for one of these "famous companies." He has to travel, sometimes, out of the Green Zone. Every time I hear about incidents involving American civilians, I think of him, and hope he's not involved. Keep D&D Civil!!
Giddyup and Basso; So now you're accusing those on "your side of the argument" as somehow supporting this or using it for political gain? If anything from the content of Basso's post it seems more like "your side of the argument" is trying to use this for some sort of political gain. Look everyone is sickened and disgusted by this event. Lets not turn this into some sort of contest to see who has the greatest moral outrage. We all want to win the war on terror and make sure that nothing like this ever happens again. We disagree on the strategy but lets give each other the due of recognizing our common morality.
I thought that I was going for Reality Recognition? This act of terrorism was deliberately and intentionally done in such a way so as to mount the highest possible casualty count and it will be repeated. Some have conveniently divided the terrorists into two factions: one who would do such a thing and the other who wouldn't-- without a shread of evidence or intelligence of such a demarcation. I'm having a real struggle swallowing the notion that those who are "saving" Iraq are also busy on a daily basis with intentionally killing innocent Iraqis. It's pretty obvious to me that they are "saving Iraq" for themselves-- something the US is constantly criticized of doing.
but would they be outraged by this? personally, i blame michael moore: http://www.wbir.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=20241 -- UPDATE: Shots fired into Knoxville Bush/Cheney headquarters An unknown suspect fired several shots into the Bearden office of the Bush/Cheney re-election campaign Tuesday morning. The headquarters are located at 4618 Kingston Pike, next to Noveau Classics and in the same shopping plaza as Long's Drugstore. According to Knoxville Police Department (KPD) officers on the scene Tuesday, it is believed that the two separate shots were fired from a car sometime between 6:30 am and 7:15 am. One shot shattered the glass in the front door and the other cracked the glass in another of the front doors. There were no witnesses to the shooting. A customer at a nearby dry cleaning store noticed shattered glass on the sidewalk in front of the headquarters and called police. Volunteers and staffers at the campaign office say they have no clues as to who might have committed the crime. However, they add that the shooting makes them even more enthusiastic and energized about working for their candidates. "If I have to sleep here (at the campaign office) now, that's what I'll do," says volunteer Suzanne Dewar. In an unexpected twist, a bank directly across the street from the headquarters was robbed just as KPD officers were busy investigating at the scene of the shooting.
I'm sure they are the ones responsible. I know Begalla likes to hunt. He probably took one of his guns and did this.
USA today picks up the thread: best line, "we support their right to have a gun, just not their right to use it in this fashion." http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-10-05-gop-office-attack_x.htm -- Shots fired at Knoxville Bush-Cheney office; no one hurt KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Gunshots shattered the plate-glass front doors of a local Bush-Cheney campaign headquarters Tuesday morning before volunteers reported to work. "For someone to use that level of violence to try to make a political point, it is just a shock," said Chad Tindell, Knox County Republican chairman. Police believe someone pulled up to the Kingston Pike Shopping Center storefront of Bush-Cheney Victory 2004, the state GOP's grass-roots support organization, between 6:45 and 7:15 a.m. ET and began firing. No one was inside and no one was injured. "We know there were at least two shots and possibly more," Knoxville police spokesman Darrell DeBusk said. Police were searching for bullet fragments and suspects. Corey Johns, the local Bush-Cheney campaign coordinator, said the office had received no threats. "You always have people stealing yard signs and things like that, and some people have done some pretty hateful things on both sides," he said. "But nothing of this magnitude." Knox County Democratic chairman Jim Gray called the attack "despicable." "I can't imagine what kind of thinking inspired it or maybe what amount of alcohol," Gray said. "My second thought is, maybe it was just someone who got tired of their darn Kerry signs being stolen." A Bush-Cheney yard sign pierced by a bullet was salvaged from the broken glass on the floor and proudly hung on a campaign office wall. "A .32 (caliber) maybe, if I would guess," state legislative candidate Stacey Campfield said, trying to gauge the bullet. "Stuff like this galvanizes people," he said. "I came down and saw the police and I thought, 'What a place to be,'" said Michele Statile, an excited first-day volunteer busy handing out buttons and brochures. A bank robbery at a BB&T branch across the street about 11 a.m. heightened the activity. DeBusk said the robbery by a man on foot without a weapon was a coincidence. Jo Catlett was the first campaign volunteer scheduled to work Tuesday. She arrived around 9 a.m. to find the doors broken and police already there. "We have never had any problem," she said. "I don't know why someone would do that, but we are not afraid or scared. We are upset that somebody would do that." Knox County and East Tennessee have been Republican strongholds since the Civil War. Tindell said Bush-Cheney supporters lined up two-deep to get campaign material after the shooting. The office has given away 16,000 signs and 25,000 stickers since it opened four weeks ago. Police promised to step up patrols both for the local Bush-Cheney office and Kerry-Edwards office until the election four weeks away. DeBusk said officers were interviewing employees in the shopping center for clues and checking security cameras for video of the shooter. "You often hear during campaigns, whether it is presidential or local, of signs being stolen or vandalized, but this morning's shooting takes that to a new level," DeBusk said.
Judging from the context of your posts it struck me as more being "silence equals consent." No moral person could support such an action and I have a very hard time believing that anyone in America for or against Bush would. Just because people don't parade their outrage doesn't mean that people aren't outraged.
I'd go more with silence equals befuddlement. I don't expect anybody here not to be horrified by the tragic deaths. My concern is that it is clear that these insurgents have zero interest in the well-being of the Iraqi population, yet the US seems to face more criticism than do these insurgents. Nobody is willing to or can effectively explain that... The insurgents would seem to want Iraq for themselves. They build nothing for Iraq and they seek to destroy what the US does build for Iraq. Why not bomb the facility at night when the neighborhood would not be turned out? They are clearly as interested in terrorizing the general Iraqi population as they are in killing an American or two daily.
