By your definition, any player who earns an assist makes his teammates better. If you take the literal definition that he "assisted" someone, then yes, Steve Francis makes his teammates better. Based on that definition, so does Moochie Norris.
In 93-94, Hakeem averaged 3.59 assists per game. Yao is at 1.7. And Yao plays with better players. If Hakeem in his prime ever had a guard as good as Steve to play with, or even Cuttino, we would have a few more rings. It wasn't until we traded for Clyde that he actually had a talented guard.
As a center, your primary duties are to rebound and block shots. Yao is very average in these points but yet, I sense that you would still say that he is a great player. Is is possible that even though a player does not excel at the tasks traditionally given his position but makes up for it in other ways he might still be a good player?
Yes, it does. How is it illogical? Does Moochie not help out his teammates when he sets them up for an easy score? Yes or No? OK, so let's table that for a second; based on your definition, which you didn't technically specify, but which I guess translates to "Yao does because I arbitrarily say he does" or "Yao draws more double teams in the low post" , I can agree with you that Steve doesn't fit either of those definitions. Just be clearer about that beforehand and eliminate the confusion.
I had to smile when the announcers for the All Star game were ripping on Steve's over-dribbling and how it reminded them of when he dribbled out the clock against S.A. But I digress. Steve can put on a show, he can dunk, but it's fairly plain to b-ball purists that his game is crap. I am here in Guadalajara for the month and met with an American who is from Sacramento and she said she turned off the game at half-time, like I did, because she got sick of the West team's showboating. She also trashed the city of Houston, so I had to shrug and say, "Outside of Rice U. and Memorial Park and such, yes, Houston is aesthetically challenged." But that's another story.
Are you saying that anybody who gets an assist = "sets them up for easy scores"? Sometimes but not always. When you look at the statistical categories of Assist/48 minutes, Assist/TO ratios, Steve does not do well in either of those categories. Why? Almost every possession begins or ends in his hands. The fact he averages so few assists relative to his minutes played and the turnovers he commits should indicate that no, he does not set his teammates up for easy scores. Those are 2 telling statistics.
You said he does not make his teammates better at all Not relative to minutes played, not compared to turnovers, not /48 minutes, not any of that. If he does it at all then your statement is incorrect. Which it is. What's a telling statistic, to me, is that the Rockets seem to do better with Steve on the court than with Yao as far as plus minus rating (Also, FYI, note moochie's low rating) If we're talking about making a team better, I don't know anything to measure the overall acheivements of a team other than that (yes, Jim Jackson's is the the highest on the team of the regulars. So what? How does that invalidate anything?) Look, you have a bone to pick with Steve, we all know that. Just make legitimate criticisms, like he turns the ball over too much, instead of stupid absolute statements "Yao makes his teammates better, Steve does not" that can be easily disproven.
7 of the top ten in leaders in this statistic play on teams that are etiher tied or with or worse than the Rockets. What does this stat tell you, absolutely nothing. Assists does not equal making your teamates better. It is a good sign of your ability to find an open man. I will admit that, but it is nothing more or less. Your teamates are still the ones who have to get in position and your teamates are still the ones who have to knock down the shots. What did Michael Jordan average in assists. That's a guard who handled the ball mostly for his team who didn't average many assists, but I don't think you will find many who said he didn't make his teamates better.
Why would something like that make you smile? BTW, basketball is entertainment, not religion. Most of us watched the ASG to be entertained and don't mind players pulling out all stops to show us some things we would never see in a real game. But I digress. Perhaps the league can put on a "Chest Pass" contest and a "Set Shot" contest for you. But until that time, might I suggest instead of watching this NBA and all those disturbing, show boating players, you go to your local church and watch those nice, conservative young men play basketball instead. I think you'd be happier and you wouldn't have to worry about those pesky windmill dunks that you seems to hate so much.
That statistic places a huge emphasis on the amount of time on the court. Just because you're on the court more does not mean you are making the "team better". Are you saying Jim Jackson makes the "team better" than Yao. based on that stat, the answer would be yes and since you subscribe to its accuracy, you must believe that which is right in line with your regular Yao posting. You think I have an agenda? Look in the mirror.
You miss the point. (btw, I haven't brought up the Rox record with and without Francis yet) You made an absolute claim that Yao makes his teammates better, Francis does not. The claim was not comparative or relative, nor does it contemplate Jim Jackson's involvment. You stated in in absolute terms, and confirmed it when I asked you if that was really what you meant. You still haven't provided any evidence of the absolute claim you made, while I have provided evidence that it is false. I'm still waiting for a legitimate justification from you, since you haven't given one by now, I'm going to just drop it and assume that you don't have one. What is my regular Yao posting? I'd like to know, btw.
How have you provided me evidence that it is false? By his assist numbers? Once again, an assist does not mean you make your teammates better. .So if you hand the ball to someone 5 times at mid court and he makes 5 baskets, the passer gets 5 assists. Does that mean the player handing the ball off made his teammate better? He made the pass that led directly to the score. Did he aid in that process or was it due to the shooter's skills? You are making a direct correlation between assists and making teammates better. That is a false assumtion. As far as the chart you provided to demonstrate who has the most impact on a team's win/loss: According to it, Jim Jackson makes the "team better" than Yao. Do you really believe that? As far as your regular Yao bashing agenda, it's fairly obvious.
Please provide specific examples of my "regular Yao bashing agenda". Also, please provide me what your exact definition of "Making ones teammates better" is. You claim that assists and plus minus ratio do not show this category. All well and good, so therefore I have attempted to have you ascertain what this category is so that we can investigate whether or not your claim is true on an absolute basis. You have only responded with vague allusions to such relative numbers as assist/turnover, assist/48 minutes (I thought assists didn't matter anyway, huh? EDIT: looks like pgabriel caught that too... ) Again, I am still waiting on your definition of what "Making his teammates better" means so that we can test your assumptions as to whether or not, on an absolute basis, Francis does not and Yao does.
What a shock, here's the other Steve Francis groupie. Just because you record assists does not mean you make your teammates better. If you play 40 minutes per game, and are the starting PG, you will average similiar stats. Does that mean every player in the league who averages 5 assists per game makes their team better? The fact he averages so few assists given his time played is fairly indicative that most of Francis' assists are a direct result of the shooter and not Francis' passing.
I equate making your teammates better = making the game easier for your teammates, which includes giving your teammates more open looks, and placing them in easy scoring situations. Steve cannot consistently create opportunities for his teammates. He can only do that for himself.
I thought you were above insults, since you are not, I really think its funny how you think you try to pass yourself off as an objective observer. Anyway, There is no logic to prove your second statement in that if Steve is on the court longer he should average more assists. I don't even understand what you are trying to say. Secondly, the criticism that he has the ball in his hands most of the time applied to the previous seasons, but since the isolation game has been eliminated by Jeff Van Gundy, Steve does not have the ball in his hand most of the time. He usually gets the ball out of his hands within the first 5 seconds of crossing the mid court line.
Sorry, I submitted that accidently, secondly, if Steve's assists depend on the shooter, and the Rockets are one of the worst Field goal shooting teams in the league, wouldn't it be logical for his assists to go up as his teamates hit more shots. So how is he not making his teamates better, when almost magically, when the Rockets hit more shots, his assists go up. Its almost uncanny. Finally, what is the Rockets record with Steve in the lineup vs. without. He may not make his individual teamates better, but he definitly makes this team better.
