so you have to chose. Is Green's limiting factor his frame or is it his effort? You have to chose one. People think you are doing this in bad faith because you are just shooting random darts at a wall. Chose one narrative.
I’m not arguing anymore, you guys are totally right, Jalen will for sure be all nba first team defense just like Caruso. 'Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.'
You have an issue with not addressing the argument of the people you are debating. No one is saying or even remotely implying that Green is a good defender. You said that Green can never be an elite defender because of his frame. That's all. That's literally the claim that is being contested. So understand what you are arguing.
Stop trying to argue semantics. Green will never be an elite defender, period, does it really matter the reason? Or are you disputing that? You made a good point earlier, these are not “good faith” arguments from you - all you guys are looking for is a “gotcha”. The funny thing is that I am one of the more optimistic fans who think the Rockets will far exceed expectations this year, and Green’s improvement is a big factor in that. But team success is not what the onlyfans care about - it is all about Green getting all the credit - he has to be the undisputed number one option (only then does team achievement matter) all heil - mein supreme leader. It just eats at your soul that he may have to play second or even *giggle* third fiddle.
I think this post shows how little substance is in your opinions. For you the "why" in why Jalen Green can never be a great defender is irrelevant. For you you just want to debate a starting position and that's it. You aren't observing, and analyzing. You have preconceived notions. Hence why stuff like WHY You believe in the assertions you do is irrelevant. The important part for you is just expressing your preconceived notions and not explaining how you got to this notions. Hence why you think this is merely symmantics. Posters like @NewAge and @Bobbythegreat have the same issue in that how they formed their premises is irrelevant to them when discussing Green. It's a start off narrative and any new data points from people who disagree is just going to either result in moving goal posts or hurling insults.
So do you think Jalen will ever be first team all defense or not? That’s the difference between us. You think I need to write up a dissertation to justify this when to anyone with half a brain it is self explanatory - Jalen is a horrible defender and with more structure and effort we would all be ecstatic if he can just be average. No one needs an explanation why he can’t be “elite” at defense besides the most deluded of the deluded.
No.. but that's mainly because high usage offensive players rarely become consistent elite defenders. The ones like Kobe or Jordan often get severely overrated as their careers move along where reputation is only carrying water for them. Jordan needed Pippen because Jordan had high usage on offense and couldn't commit to being a elite defensive stopper except for bursts in important game situations. Kawhi needs to take breaks from physical activity for 3/4ths of a NBA season to do what he does. I think you already made up your mind about Jalen Green's limits as a defender and you don't know why you have that option and hence why you can't have a consistent narrative on why you believe that.
Thank you for the excellent explanation for why you agree with me. You have dragged me through the mud to finally get to this point. Chef’s kiss
Yes with your tactic of throwing random darts in the wall with a web of contradictory assertions and moving goal posts in sure at one point you have said roughly the same thing as me here. But in another post you'll say his frame is to small to ever be a good defender. It's like hedging bets.
So just out of curiosity, if it's not effort, what does separate Caruso from Jalen if it's not effort? I'm genuinely curious as to what ability or skill Caruso has that makes him an elite defender that Jalen apparently can never possess. Is it speed, lateral quickness, understanding of defensive schemes... ??? I mean since your whole build argument was debunked I'm really trying to understand what else separates who Caruso is today as a defender to what Jalen could be? Not saying he will, just why he could NEVER be...
Like I'd answer that as there are reasons why a lesser physically gifted guy like Caruso can be a better defender than Jalen outside of just effort. But this guy we are debating probably never thinks of these things. A large part of playing defense is anticipation. Reading and analyzing footwork on the fly. You'll see elite defenders who are less agile than the offensive player stop the offensive player they are guarding from getting by not because of their agility but because of their anticipation. Green though on point of attack one on one defense seems to actually have okay anticipation. I remember a close game against the Pacers were Hali tried to iso out Green at the top of the 3 pt line but Green anticipated all his lateral movements really well. For Green I think most of his issues for his first two years involve having a 19-20 year old body(less muscle mass) and just being lost off ball. These thingss are easily the most correctable through experience, coaching and weight training.
