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2022 Abortion protests thread

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, May 5, 2022.

  1. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    A bad cause like trying to overthrow an election? Yeah, that seems like a stretch to use the word insurrectionist. Breaking windows at a Macy's seems more akin to that right?

    One thing I wonder about the right - they like to call rioters "protestors" and terrorists "activists" to give politicians the power to restrict protesting and activism. This must really be disturbing to a free speech absolutist such as yourself.
     
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  2. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Trust the process
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    buy it. read it. cherish it.

     
  3. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    I'll wait for the tl;dr version.

    But I was more interested in your opinion on how many GOP states are restricting free speech (particularly protests). In Florida, the way the law is written, if you are protesting, and someone else lets say breaks a window, then you've committed an illegal act for being there and can be arrested even though you were protesting peacefully.

    No one is talking about this, but the laws are being changed so that you can be arrested for merely being at a protest, even if you did not break any law otherwise.
     
  4. Astrodome

    Astrodome Member
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    I semi-successfully protested my property taxes in GOP led TX. I was very calm, no fire-bombs or even F-Bombs
     
  5. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Trust the process
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    haven't followed that issue. do you have a specific law in Florida in mind? with some analysis/discussion as well if you can find it
     
  6. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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  7. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Trust the process
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    on a quick perusal (haven't finished it), seems like:

    (a) standard time manner place restrictions -- which are applauded by many posters here in other contexts;

    and

    (b) “These laws are entirely unnecessary because unlawful activity is already unlawful.” That's the argument gun rights people make: it's already illegal to shoot and kill people.

    But I'll keep reading
     
  8. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Trust the process
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  9. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    a) isn't the ones I was talking about. Specially about Florida.

    As for b) - yeah I don't really look at that argument too much either. But it's not the same as the gun rights argument. Killing someone with a gun requires two actions that occur at very likely two different points in time. One is the shooting of the gun, the other is the acquiring of the gun & ammo.

    In this case, within a protest, a law against damaging property is already in effect and it is duplicative to also create a law around a protestor damaging property. The right analogy by gun advocates would be passing more laws making it illegal to shoot and kill someone in a protest vs outside of one.
     
  10. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Trust the process
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    I'll look at the Florida example
     
  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Trust the process
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    got it, here's an article describing the version that got signed into law:

    https://www.orlandosentinel.com/pol...0210419-iltp27x5mzcbheeqvyhclhz2xq-story.html

    is that the one?

    on edit: the governor's office press release on that bill being signed into law:

    https://www.flgov.com/2021/04/19/wh...-taking-unapologetic-stand-for-public-safety/

    on edit: the bill's history and link to full text

    https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2021/1

    on edit: the bill is 61 pages long and has many elements

    https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2021/1/BillText/er/PDF
     
    #231 Os Trigonum, Jun 16, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
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  12. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Trust the process
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    okay, I feel like I at least have some background on your initial question.

    Seems like what we have here (from my admittedly quick getting-up-to-speed reading of the above) is simply another in a long line of vaguely-written and poorly crafted pieces of legislation. This problem is not unique to Florida but is truly endemic to political life. The law you are questioning appears to be overly-broad and poorly written.

    The good news is that after someone gets arrested and files a lawsuit against the arresting authorities, this law will probably come under close scrutiny and be rejected (in the relevant sections). First Amendment cases routinely receive this kind of close scrutiny because free speech laws--and laws that hinder free speech--have tended historically to be vague and poorly written.

    Here's a concise overview of the problem:

    Vagueness

    https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1027/vagueness

    excerpt:

    A law that defines a crime in vague terms is likely to raise due-process issues. Courts in the United States give particular scrutiny to vague laws relative to First Amendment issues because of their possible chilling effect on protected rights.

    Vague laws raise problems with due process
    According to the U.S. Supreme Court in Connally v. General Construction Co. (1926), a law is unconstitutionally vague when people “of common intelligence must necessarily guess at its meaning.” Whether or not the law regulates free speech, if it is unduly vague it raises serious problems under the due process guarantee, which is applicable to the federal government by virtue of the Fifth Amendment and to state governments through the Fourteenth Amendment.

    Thus, in overturning a California loitering law that required persons who wander or loiter on the streets to provide “credible and reliable” identification in Kolender v. Lawson (1983), the Supreme Court explained that “the void-for-vagueness doctrine requires that a penal statute define the criminal offense with sufficient definiteness that ordinary people can understand what conduct is prohibited and in a manner that does not encourage arbitrary and discriminatory treatment.”

    Void-for-vagueness doctrine has ancient roots
    The void-for-vagueness doctrine probably has its roots in the ancient Roman law maxim, Nulla crimen sine lege (no crime without law). English jurist Sir Edward Coke stated that all laws, but especially serious penal laws, “ought to be . . . plainly and perspicuously penned. . . .” A century later Sir William Blackstone in his Commentaries on the English Constitution explained the requirement that every law clearly define and articulate “the right to be observed, and the wrongs to be eschewed. . . .” (Blackstone relates that a man who stole one horse was not penalized under a statute which forbade “stealing horses.”) In France, Montesquieu’s Spirit of the Laws urged that laws be concise, simple, and devoid of “vague expressions.”

    These examples undoubtedly were known to early American commentators and jurists, who often reiterated the importance of clarity in criminal statutes. James Madison in Federalist No. 62 warns of the “calamitous” results if laws are “so incoherent that they cannot be understood. . . .” In an early federal court case, United States v. Sharp (1815), the Court argued that laws that “create crimes, ought to be so explicit in themselves, or by reference to some other standard, that all men, subject to their penalties, may know what acts it is their duty to avoid.”
    and more at the link
     
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  13. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Ok I can agree that the issue of the law is its vagueness. I guess the question around the law is why it is vague in the first place? Is it just because of bad law writing skills or is it because it allows more leeway in arresting individuals.

    Now, you can say that the law can be challenged in court and that is true. But it doesn't change that a lot of people will get arrested, suffer consequences, have their lives impacted first for a law that was likely written as a type of photo-op for the base and to shore up political support.
     
  14. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Trust the process
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    you've just described basically every bad law out there
     
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  15. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Ok then, so by the same token, it should be even less of an issue with Kathy Hocul goes on camera to say she wants to pass laws banning hate speech, right?
     
  16. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Trust the process
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    not sure I understand the question. New York is particularly bad when it comes to rushed, poorly-written and poorly-conceived legislation. The NY S.A.F.E. Act was a masterpiece in that regard. And if Kathy Hochul says she wants to ban hate speech, I would turn around and run the other way
     
  17. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Just saying that she is pulling a DeSantis
     
  18. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Trust the process
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    no doubt. kind of cut from the same cloth. Cuomo also
     
  19. Astrodome

    Astrodome Member
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    This isn't newsworthy per pelosi. We need to shift our focus from the fire bombers back to the parents yelling at school board meetings.
     
  20. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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