2015 Harden vs 2009 Howard

If the team has very good shooter, then you have to pick Howard. He lead the magic to a top 5 defense with Hedo, Nelson (then Alston) and Lewis playing heavy starter minutes. 2009 Dwight is the only player that was just as dominate and fearsome as a prime-LeBron James. Most disruptive force in the NBA.

If the team has a slew of role players, then Harden. With Howard out half the season and no other big name on the team, it was basically Harden and a team of role players playing hard every night. That brought us the most memorable season in 20 years.

In general, and in today's NBA, I think you have to go 2009 Dwight. Finding perimeter play is pretty easy in today's NBA, and while it probably won't be the level of Harden, would much rather have a center who can control both paint sections.

 

dwight was probably better than a 25 yo lebron over that period....

 

What idiot would pick 2015 Harden over 2009 Howard? Dwight was easily the most disruptive defensive force in the past two decades up to that point. He carried a team of scrubs and Turkoglu to the Finals.

 

I disagree. I don't think these stats take into account all the hockey assists Hakeem got & other centers got back in the day.

 

I really have no idea why we need try and distort reality to try and preserve narratives.

Hakeem was amazing, but he simply was not as good as Harden on offense.

 

Well, that's a good way to address my point.

 

Here is my point: I do not know the details of how some of how those advanced stats are calculated (I should look them up someday), but I imagine some of them are driven by assists. But the assists don't capture all of the offense Hakeem created for his teammates. I brought up the hockey assist. Seemed like 50% (I know that's an exaggeration) we scored on back then were Hakeem kicking it out of a double team to Horry or whomever, Maxwell's guy running over to cover Horry, Horry swinging it over to Maxwell, and so on until a wide open player on the perimeter hits a three. Happened ALL the time. Does that get recorded to show the offense Hakeem created? No. Happens all the time to back-to-the-basket players. RARELY, do back-to-the-basket big men get 4 APG. Shaq NEVER did it. Do you think that represents all the offense Shaq created for his teammates? Only big men I can think of who did that would Blake and David Robinson. Both of them faced up. In fact, Robinson's big numbers were when John Lucas was coaching and doing weird things with their offense. Harden had a lot more APG than Hakeem, but he did not create as much offense for his teammates as Hakeem.

The one thing Harden was better at was aggressively drawing contact and getting to the line, and that is really valuable. Hakeem's moves in the championship years were often fading away from the basket, so he didn't draw the fouls David Robinson and others did.

Harden did have a great year last year. I just would contend that no successful team has depended on one player as much as Hakeem in the first championship year. Cuz we just talked about offense - not even touching what the man did on defense. I almost feel bad even discussing this. The man is like a deity.

 

I wrote that quickly - loads of omitted words. Corrected it.

 

The answer is easy, you take both else you don't win a championship.

 

I don't know what you want me to say.

Your response is basically: "I don't believe the facts". How can I respond to that?

So Hakeem creates hockey assists and Harden doesn't? If you want to go down that road fine. Harden draws so many fouls, other players get freebies from the foul penalty rule.

 

That's inaccurate, man. I said the stats are incomplete. At least, three of your stats (APG, Offensive Win Shares, Offensive Rating) are incomplete, since they don't factor in Hockey Assists. I can't even find out what Offensive Base is composed of. You totally minimize hockey assists for big men - I don't think you watched any bball back then. And you must be kidding me about how often Beverley, Terry, and Ariza got to the line cuz of Harden. Agree to disagree - but don't say stuff like I'm disregarding facts. That's BS.

 

You're never going to win this argument. There's no way that Harden was a better offensive player than Olajuwon. Olajuwon was the offensive focal point of two championship teams and had arguably the best post game in NBA history. He didn't rely on referees, he was matchup proof, and best of all, he elevated his game in the playoffs.

 

Offensive rating is an estimation of the number of points produced per 100 possessions.

Offensive Base Plus/Minus is A box score estimate of the offensive points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team.

And yes, I watched basketball "back then".

Here is an article from 2012 tracking the best hockey "Assisters"

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/04/12/rose-leads-nba-in-hockey-assists/

We are talking a number less than 2 a game. Even if you assume Olajuwon, was at the top of the list, in his time, it still, is not close.

I will never understand why it is so god damn hard to give Harden some ****ing credit around here.

 

Well, I have to concede this hockey assist info is the killer to my argument. While I still can't admit that Harden's season was better offensively, a jury would side with you on this. I still would swear Hakeem created more open shots made than 2 a game in addition to his credited assists, I've got nothin'..... Thanks for educating me on that.

 

I'll take it

Thank you for being objective.

 

How many rings? Most important offensive stat ever

 

why is this even a debate....its 09' Dwight by far. I don't like these polls though, picking one year of a player's prime and comparing it. Overall longevity and success is what matters.

 

Obviously that destroys any argument, but if you want to start at the bottom of the list one wasn't a loser mentally.