After not being able to watch the Astros in 2 years. THis has really been a great season so far. I like what Luhow has done. On offense he has a set of power hitting players and a set of players with a lot of speed. Pitching he got us a good bullpen in one season and our starting pitching was decent from last year to now with finding some jewels in Keuchel and McHugh.
Agreed but I feel like Carter and Springer are still 'slumping' and Castro's bat still has potential to wake up...what's amazing is that this team STILL might not be hitting on all offensive cylinders yet...Gattis only recently got healthy and the aforementioned guys really haven't gotten things going as of now. Hopefully they'll step it up soon if/when others start falling back to the mean. But imagine if they are all hitting lights out at the same time! Watch out MLB
Sure you can...except I'm not the one clamoring for somebody who hasn't realized his expectations to hop in the big league lineup this year and improve the team. You are. Are you implying that Miami viewed and valued Moran exactly the same the day they traded him as the day they drafted him?? Let's not rearrange facts: they dealt him and 3 other prospects for Jarred Cosart. I'm not saying Cosart isn't a quality pitcher, but being willing to throw in your #6 pick after a year in a package with other good assets, in exchange for Jarred Cosart, speaks more to their perceived value of him, than it does to their perceived value of Cosart. Do you think any GM would trade a 2015 #6 pick, #37 pick, a top 5 organizational prospect, plus a low-level flier, all for Cosart right now? Of course they wouldn't. After a year of evaluation, Miami had seen enough of Moran to be willing to devalue him. When drafted, he was considered potentially the best hitter in the draft, with a 6'3" frame who should grow into a power hitter. He's exhibited no power, while barely hitting for average through AA. He's now 22, and is going to lose at least a chunk of this season (of which he's off to a slow start) to injury. In the trade, he was closer to a flier than a sure-fire big league contributor. I am still plenty hopeful that he will be a part of our future. But, other than his pre-draft hype, there's no good reason why the possibility of adding the current version of Moran to this year's lineup should *really* interest you. He just isn't all that interesting right now. And, as I said, and as the Marlins would undoubtedly agree - there's no guarantee he will even end up developing.
Settle down, Francis... I suggested that the team, collectively, has some talented hitters in the minors who could *possibly* impact the MLB club this year I'm not sure how anyone could draw anything from that statement other than my passing overall interest in the team's future prospects... let alone the idea that I think Colin Moran –and Colin Moran alone - is going to “to hop in the big league lineup this year and improve the team.” No clue. But the idea that trading him indicates they weren't happy with his development/had given up on him/were happy to move on - or any other negative implication... that's a fairly drastic leap, IMO. Especially considering they were acquiring a highly-regarded pitching prospect with MLB experience. Those tend to be costly. They dealt him and *two* other prospects for Jarred Cosart and *two other players*, Mr. Let's Not Rearrange Facts... I like how you’ve conveniently deemed Moran the “throw-in” – a guy the Astros sincerely considered drafting first overall ahead of Mark Appel less than two years ago. Not sure. But I do know the Marlins’ GM *didn’t* make that trade… Do you have anything substantive to back this claim up? There aren’t a lot of teams that would haphazardly give up on a 6th overall pick after a year. Again, I’m not sure how a general comment about the upper levels of the Astros system that referenced a few of the more highly-regarded players, turned into a referendum on Colin Moran… are you actively upset with Moran’s development?… I mean, seems like a silly thing to extrapolate and attack…
still incorrect, but you're getting closer. didn't say that/wasn't my intended implication. feel free to change "being willing to throw in" to "being willing to include" missed the point you are saying "haphazardly", not me. it's the same team who correctly assessed that they could safely give up their #4 organizational prospect (another 3B) for a 2 month rental of Carlos Lee. you seemingly fail to understand that players' values change over time, the player's value a year post-draft doesn't automatically equal their value when drafted, and the concept that there may be GM's out there willing to make quicker evaluations than others, and get back a return on a player while there's still perceived value out there. You made a comment about how interesting it will be when Moran, Singleton, and Correa are integrated into this year's roster. I made a comment questioning why so many people view his future success as a given (you, other posters, national media, etc). You then flipped ur bean. So, that's how it happened. Remember now?
The problem is that being interested to see if/how Moran/Singleton/Correa are integrated into the roster does not suggest that anyone believes their future success is given. You made claims about how the Marlins viewed Moran that can't be substantiated and were called out on it.
Of course it does. If I said "I sure am interested to see Troy Scribner on this big league roster later this year", can you not draw several conclusions on my thoughts of him from that? His claims of the opposite can't be substantiated either. I stated a case for my claims. He not only didn't really know their entire package that they gave up, but his only case was "Cosart was an extremely highly-regarded pitcher", which is in and of itself an unsubstantiated claim.
Simple question, with a yes or no answer: If Miami thought exactly the same of Moran as they did the day they drafted him, do you think they would have packaged him, Marisnick, and the 37th pick in this year's draft, for Jared Cosart? (Let's consider the other 3 players involved fillers for simplicity, or don't. Feel free to include them if it changes your answer.) Take your best guess.
Moran lost value... just like Appel has lost value. We hear Appel's name being tossed around in possible trades for established players/starting pitchers. Pretty sure the Astros weren't looking to trade him when they selected him first overall. Players' values definitely change. If the Astros get a deal that they feel they really need to add that player to make a difference... and Appel is the asking price... they're going to most definitely consider it. If they don't get that deal, they're going to "hope" that Appel can become a solid starter... just like the Marlins probably would have been resigned to let Moran continued to develop in their system.
Interesting (for once) Drellich article. http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastro...o-keep-team-rolling-division-lead/#31931101=0
Uhm... OK.... Trading a player does not automatically presume that the organization *wanted* to trade the player, which seems to be your singular perspective on this. A pitcher with Cosart’s credentials is not, routinely, given away; there’s generally a significant cost. Valuing a pitcher like Cosart over a player like Moran does not, by extension, devalue Moran. Team, sure - but "teams" don't make trades; the Marlins have a new team president and general manager as of 2013, a year after Lee was dealt. First and foremost, very few GMs would draw the declarative conclusion you're describing on a 6th overall pick who's been in your system roughly 12 months. Well, thinking about it... no GM who wants to continue working as a GM. That's a remarkably quick hook for a very recent high draft pick who isn't in trouble, or causing trouble, or... Including “etc.” at the end of that list was intentional, as was the use of the word, “probability.” It was a statement purposefully constructed to be non-committal and to speak to the overall talent of the team’s system. So when you incorrectly reconstruct my comment with declarative statements like, “when Moran, Singleton, and Correa are integrated into this year's roster,” you’ve totally misrepresented my intention. Again, cardpire, Mr. Let’s Not Rearrange Facts… I never said, “I sure am interested to see Colin Moran on this big league roster later this year" – not even close. What I said - yes, through implication but it was fairly explicit - was: I’m interested to see us possibly integrate some of our highly-regarded hitters this year. You'd have to do some work to interpret it the way you have. I’ll tell ya what, man………. I never argued the Marlins had or had not soured on him; never. I merely called out your unsubstantiated claim that they had, which you’re basing on a seemingly singular idea that if a team trades a player, it implies that they aren’t happy with him - it might be true. But no one this far removed from the situation should be so sure of themselves. And Cosart was a highly-regarded young pitcher with success on the MLB level: those are tremendous commodities, cardpire. I feel as silly explaining that to you as I do basic communication tactics. And what is this I didn’t know the entire package? I linked to an article which proved YOU didn’t know the entire package. And despite the helpful link, you've continued to get it wrong.
I have no idea. It depends on how they value Cosart. What would you give up for a 25 year old pitcher with a career ERA of 3.23 and under club control for many years to come? I think Cosart is overperforming thus far and its unsustainable, but maybe Miami doesn't. Cosart has an ERA of 2.58 so far in 15 starts with Miami - if that continues, they got a staff ace. Would you trade a top prospect for a club-controlled #1 or #2 pitcher?
Oh cool, let's suddenly hop on both sides of the fence. It's obviously your MO to clearly imply things, but because you didn't explicitly state them, wiggle out of them if you feel like you might be proven wrong. Silly way to argue. The same thing you did throughout that Peyton Manning thread and it's aftermath a few years back. You are clearly implying here that they had not soured on him. CLEARLY: No, i'm talking about this trade in particular, and the lines which seem rather easy to read in between to make an educated guess on their views of him One more try: re-read the article and let's hear ya type out all those pieces that you had no clue were involved. (I admittedly forgot about Austin Wates, aka "The Dealbreaking 26 y/o career minor leaguer", so why don't you be a mench and admit you really had no idea what was included other than Marisnick, Moran, and Cosart. Let's give you a shot at this. My guess is you won't answer it with a simple yes or no, but let's pop it out there for ya anyway: Simple question, with a yes or no answer: If Miami thought exactly the same of Moran as they did the day they drafted him, do you think they would have packaged him, Marisnick, and the 37th pick in this year's draft, for Jared Cosart? (Let's consider the other 3 players involved fillers for simplicity, or don't. Feel free to include them if it changes your answer.) Take your best guess.
Not sure you're allow to use Cosart's "unsustainable" results as justification for Moran's elite prospect status. Surely the Marlins have discussed whether or not they feel Cosart's results are unsustainable, using the same suspicion and metrics you have.... and while they "could" end up having that ace, we all know that there was still a lot of question marks behind that. Just like there are plenty of question marks with Moran that he has continued to show in his brief time in this system.... thus you have to presume that he's not as highly valued now as he was at the time of the draft (doesn't mean he's worthless). I think comparing Moran's prospect status at the time of the trade is very close to comparing Appel's prospect status now. Appel is not looked at now like the sure-fire #1 pick he was when he was drafted... he still has value, and is expected to eventually make it to the big leagues, but there's plenty of question marks.
Sure - and every team values players differently. If they didn't, no one would ever make trades. Just because I value Cosart less (and perhaps the Astros do) doesn't mean the Marlins do. No different than the Astros seeing something in McHugh that other teams didn't. I don't think you have to presume anything. The reality is that none of knows how the Marlins value Cosart or Moran or anyone else. Maybe they value them both really highly. Or maybe they thought it was a scrub-for-scrub trade. Sure - there are always question marks with prospects. But let's be clear - this is the statement that started this whole discussion: It's a claim that has no basis whatsoever. cardpire is now trying to turn it into people being certain Moran would be great - but no one ever claimed that. He's the one that claimed that he knew the Marlins thought little of him.
I just think you guys are all splitting hairs. Right now, all we know is that Marisnick and Cosart are playing very well.... both possibly unsustainable, but if they keep it up, they're both going to provide close to equal value (personally, I'd rather have the #1-#2 club controlled pitcher with no arm trouble history, but Marisnick is almost as important a player if he keeps this up). Moran was unlikely to have been traded right after the draft... but just one year could be enough time to see things that suddenly made him tradeable (just like Appel has been in the system for 1 year, and it wouldn't shock anybody if he was traded tomorrow). That is it.
You're proposing a hypothetical scenario where the only pieces of info I have on the player is that they are 25, have a career ERA of 3.23, and they are under club control for many years to come. I probably wouldn't give up much for that John Doe. But, I certainly wouldn't give up our #5 pick, our #37 pick, and Preston Tucker for him.
