How many teams won titles in the 80's that didn't have two HOF players on it in their peak? The 90's? 00's? And yes, I think there is a chance for Gasol to get into the HOF, much like Dumars. Especially considering his international achievements.
MJ didn't need the help of Magic and Barkley to win it all. Kobe won it all twice with Gasol as the 2nd best player, who was never a top 4 big man in any years. Had Heat won the championship last year, undoubtedly Wade would win another FMVP. Even Bosh had better performance in the finals. LeBron fanboys should feel lucky they didn't win. And LeBron needs to prove he's the best player in the team when it counts.
Gasol had less rewards than Bosh when either of them was the team's best player. You are comparing to the wrong player.
Bron got 0 clutch points in 6 final games (+/- 5 under 5 minutes), saying he's garbage would be an underestimate. Wade didn't hit some FT that mattered, but he drew the contact to begin with. Bron just bricked one 3 after another, or not looking to shoot at all.
No team won 65 games in regular season back to back and not winning a championship until LeBron's Cavs. You don't make the record book for no reason. Cavs may not have a great second star, but they have a good balanced roster.
Two top 5 players have never been on the same team ever at such a young age and they have a third 15-20 player on top of that. If you had put Hakeem and Robinson on the same team back in the day with a third wheel like KJ or Larry Johnson and they would have moonwalked to the ring the first year even if they played against Jordan's best team. There have been teams with talent in the past but nothing like what the Heat have in their big three at such a young age. If they don't win it this year minus a significant injury to one of the big three Lebron should never been mentioned as a top 10 player ever again.
No, he just needed the help of one of the greatest SF's of all-time and one PF who is arguably as good as Bosh (Grant) and another PF who just went into the HOF. That isn't even considering all the decent centers he had and shooters. No, Kobe won it twice with arguably the best frontcourt in basketball. He won it with 3 players (Gasol, Odom, Bynum) that were better than any player LeBron had as Cav. Gasol is so good our GM thought he could be a #1 option for us (although I disagree) and he also led his previous franchise to the playoffs 3 times. And notice what happened when Gasol played like garbage. LA lost. And as I mentioned earlier, Gasol has a decent shot to get into the HOF. This is absolutely true. However, I didn't know the 1st round, semis or ECF's didn't count. Because LeBron was clearly playing like the best player then. He did flameout in the Finals.
This is one of those instances where you try to fit an argument around a particular qualifier. It's akin to me saying "Jordan is the only wing to win without a high scoring pivot", and pawn it off like he had less talent while ignoring that it was the only time in history the best SG and SF in basketball were on the same team. The Lakers had Kareem (right off an MVP) and Magic on the team at the same time. They added Worthy to that mix. The Celtics had Bird, Mchale and Parish at the same time. The Lakers had Kobe and Shaq at the same time. Detroit had a young Zeke, Dumars, Rodman and very good Laimbeer at young ages. The Celtics had KG, Allen and Pierce at the same time, along with a good C and PG. What does them not being young have to do with the amount of talent at their disposal? FYI, young teams generally don't win titles. IT'S THE OLDER EXPERIENCED GUYS. You do realize the Celtics traded for the 27 yr old Parish and the 23 yr old McHale in Bird's 2nd season, when he was 24? They added these guys to a team with Cedric Maxwell, who was 25 at the time. Yeah, the guy who won Finals MVP in 81. When the Lakers drafted Magic, Kareem was the best player in basketball at age 32. Why are you focusing on his age, instead of focusing on the fact that he was the best player in basketball? If it's ok for Cap and Magic to play together then I'm not gonna trip about LeBron and Wade playing together. You do realize that Laker team also had Norm Nixon at 24 and Wilkes at 26. Let's stop actibg like Miami has the greatest assembly of talent that we have ever seen. They had enough talent to win and LeBron choked, but you guys are letting the hate blind you.
Pippen is not comparable to Wade or Lebron. Pippen was never a top five player in the league. Magic was a rookie back then and was not a top 5 player. By the time he reached his prime Kareem was old. They added Worthy to the mix when Kareem was 35 and coming of the worst season in his career so far. Once again Mchale and Parrish were never top 5 players and same goes for Dumars. I don't feel like looking it up but I'm not sure Rodman was even a starter during the championships years. Them being young has a lot to do with it because they are all in their primes. The Heat is not an inexperienced team at all. Lebron has played in plenty of playoff games and had been to the finals before last year and the same goes for Wade. There is no excuse for them not winning it all last year. You can throw out the nobody thought they would do it but they should have with all that talent. Nobody thought the Celtics would win it all either but they did. Yeah I realize that you didn't have two top 5 players on the Celtics. They had one in Bird and then some really good players but not two top 5 and another top 15. As I mentioned earlier Magic and Kareem were never in their prime together and even minus that they got it done in the first year they were together. Let's stop acting like this isn't the first time two top 5 players in the league have been on the same team with another top 15 player while they are all young and in their prime. A lot of people would even argue that Lebron and Wade are the two best players in the league. In not one of those examples was that the case. Also, and probably most importantly, this is a different league than it use to be. In such an expanded league the consolidation of talent on the Heat is even worse. Every team in the league is basically drafting 4 picks later than they did back when Jordan, Magic, Bird came into the league. That has made teams a lot thinner which means super stacked teams with have a much easier time dominating. You should go play a fun little game. Go back to the 90s rosters and put any two top 5 players on the same team that play different positions and then throw in a third top 15 player that plays a different position and see if you can make one combination that you feel wouldn't have won a championship easily in their first year. I'd be willing to bet you can't find one convincing combo.
Seeing Lebron's post game right now, and Hakeem has worked wonders for the guy. The footwork, separation for the fadeaway... Man, Hakeem needs to charge millions for his 2-3 day lessons.
First of all, how many seasons has Wade been considered a top 5 player? He has never been considered better than Kobe, Duncan or KG. Nash has been winning MVP's over him. Shaq is up there. T-Mac is up there. CP3 almost won an MVP before he got hurt. Dirk, Melo, Amare. Etc. If Pippen is not comparable then why did he make numerous All-NBA 1st teams? Wade has played 9 seasons and finished 1st team twice. Pippen finished 1st team 3 times during his first 9 seasons. Why did Pippen finish in the top 5 in MVP voting twice during his 1st 9 seasons, the same number as Wade? Why did Pippen lose Jordan and still almost carry his team to the ECF's (how far has Wade carried a team without another stud on the roster)? Pippen was considered the best SF in basketball when he played. And what is this fixation with "top 5 player"? A team with 2-3 studs (if Bosh even qualifies) and garbage is your definition of supreme talent? Do you think Jordan would prefer Wade, Bosh and a bunch of dudes that shouldn't be starting for anyone (maybe Haslem, who was hurt all year) over Pippen, Grant, legit centers like Cartwright/Perdue and legit shooters like Paxson, Armstrong and Hodges? Magic won 2 Finals MVP's in his first 3 seasons. Magic was so good that his team lost the league MVP in Game 6 of the Finals of his rookie season and it didn't even matter. Get out of here with that nonsense. Go ask the 80 Sixers if they thought Magic was a top 5 player in his rookie season. And? He had them BOTH and additional good players like Maxwell, Ainge, DJ, etc. You do realize there are 12 men on a basketball team right, not 3? You do realize that you have to have 5 players on the court, not 3? Doesn't it show you how stacked a team is when they can afford to bring a player like Rodman off the bench? There isn't an excuse for them not winning last year and they lost because LeBron choked. No one is denying that. But that doesn't mean that he suddenly had elite help prior to coming to Miami, or that he had such an ungodly amount of help that he should not have lost. The Lakers lost with a top Magic and Kareem. The Lakers lost with Kobe and Shaq. The Sixers lost with boatloads of talent prior to 83. The Bad Boys didn't win immediately. The Bulls didn't win immediately. Bird didn't win immediately. The Kobe led Lakers didn't win immediately. Etc. I didn't realize Wade was a top 5 player. You have LeBron, Howard, Rose, Kobe, Durant, Dirk and Paul. You could argue that all 7 of those guys are better players than Wade, who couldn't lead a team without another stud out of the first round. You may be able to argue Nash as well considering how far he gets his squads. Same for Melo (he did lead his team to the WCF's 2 years ago) and possibly Amare (he turned the Knicks around). It's funny how a guy you swear up and down is a top 5 player is not consistently making All-NBA teams, where they have 2 guard slots. He didn't make the 1st team last season, and I don't see how you can say he is for sure better than others who didn't either (Dirk, Amare, CP3). He made it in 2010 but can you say for sure he is better than Melo, Dirk and Amare (forwards that finished behind Durant and LeBron)? Same goes for 09, when Duncan, Yao and Melo didn't make the 1st team. No team in 08. 3rd team in 07. 2nd team in 06, but would you have preferred him over Duncan or Yao (who didn't make the 1st team)? 2nd team in 05, but would you have preferred him over KG and LeBron (who didn't make the 1st team)? As far as going back to the 90's, do you realize the Sonics lost with Payton and Kemp, supported by one of the deepest teams that we have ever seen? I'm sure the Heat would gladly give you Bosh and the rest of their roster for Schrempf, Hawkins, Perkins, McMillan and Perkins. How many times did the Jazz lose with Malone and Stockton? I'm sure the Heat would gladly give you Bosh and the rest of their roster for Hornacek and the rest of the Utah roster that year. Do you realize the Suns lost with Barkley and Kevin Johnson? Do you realize the Spurs lost with David Robinson, Rodman and Elliott? Do you realize the Suns have lost with Nash, Amare, Joe Johnson and Marion all on the same team? Do you realize the Lakers lost with Shaq, Kobe, Malone and Payton on the same team? I know you don't like the guy, but there is no need to underrate the talent that dudes had in the past and overrate the talent that he is playing with. Last years Miami Heat weren't the most talented team that I have seen on a basketball court. Let me repeat, last years Miami Heat weren't the most talented team that I have seen on a basketball court. They still should have won though.
If lebron can avg 30+ on 55+% shooting I think you have to give him the MVP. Dude has improved his post game. If doesn't decide to not shoot again I don't see how any team can beat the heat.
The last three to four years Wade has been considered a top 5 player and especially last year. Kobe was still playing at an elite level last year but to throw in Nash, Duncan, Shaq, KG and T-Mac in there is ridiculous. All of those guys were past their prime last year and that really is the only year that matters when we are talking about the Heat having two top five players. First team all NBA is a BS award and anybody with decent knowledge should know that that is not based on who is the best players in basketball. For example in the 94-95 season Hakeem was third team all NBA and Pippen, Robinson, Stockton, Penny and Malone were all NBA first team but you would have a hard time finding anybody that would argue that Hakeem wasn't a better player than all three of those. The MVP is also another joke of an award. I hate Lebron as much as the next guy but he was a better player than DRose was last year but didn't end up with the trophy despite having a better year. Top 5 is just a general summation of how good Lebron and Wade are. A lot of people consider them to both be top 3 but I just went for 5 to avoid arguments. As far as Jordan goes he probably wouldn't want Wade because they both play the same position and have the same skill set. However, I am 100% sure that if you gave Jordan Durant (2nd best sf in basketball) and Bosh and put them on the Heat last year they win a ring with ease. So rookie Magic was better than Kareem, Dr. J, Moses, Gervin, and Westphal all in their primes? Your boy Magic wasn't even able to make one of your precious all NBA first team squads until his fourth year. Breakup the big three and put Howard, Durant, and Amare on the same team and you can throw any two half decent players on the court and win a championship. You put those three on the Heat last year in this weak watered down league and they might sweep through the playoffs. As explained earlier all NBA first team etc is worthless and Wade carried the Heat on his back to a ring against a much more talented Mavericks team. Shaq was second fiddle and along for the ride in that series. Payton and Kemp weren't on the level of Hakeem, Barkley, Jordan, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing etc back then. Lebron and Wade is much greater than Payton/Kemp. Barkley lost to Jordan and Hakeem. Robinson lost to Hakeem. The suns lost to Kobe and Shaq. And that Lakers team was a hot mess that year but they had so much talent that they made it to the finals and then blew it. Lebron and Wade lost to Dirk Nowitzki and roll players. I love Dirk and he is a great player but there is no way they should have won that series. Bringing up old teams that were created in a completely different league is pointless. If you can't see that the league has changed and become more watered down then you don't know basketball. You won't hear me argue that the Heat are more talented than the fo fo fo Sixers but that team bullied the league like nothing we have ever seen before and that was a much deeper league. The Heat are the most talented team in NBA history in comparison to their competition.
Really? Ok, let's break down the last 3-4 years. If he was considered a top 5 player last year then why didn't he make the 1st team over Rose and Kobe? What is your support that he was clearly better than Dirk and CP3 last season (guys who finished 2nd team with him), especially considering the playoffs? That's 7 dudes who have a legit argument of being better, yet you swear he is a top 5 player. You telling me Melo has no argument for being better than Wade? These 9 players are arguably better than Wade currently (LeBron, Howard, Rose, Kobe, Durant, Dirk, Paul, D.Will and Melo). Wade is not considered a top 5 player. And again, what is your fixation with "top 5 player"? You do realize NBA rosters have 12 spots? Hakeem was 3rd team because there is 1 center spot. There are 2 guard spots. So what is your support that Wade was definately a top 5 player? It can't be playoff success, because he was stuck in the 1st round. It can't be numbers, because his numbers aren't clearly better than the 9 dudes I listed above. He misses more games than all of those guys as well. I would love to hear your reasoning on how Wade is clearly a better player than LeBron, Howard, Durant, Dirk and Rose. What? Who considers Wade to be a top 3 player? Who considers him better than Howard and Durant? Most don't consider him better than Kobe. That's 4 dudes right there (LeBron is the obvious choice). I'm sure they would as well. LeBron is not Jordan. Who is arguing that he is? But that still doesn't answer my question. Do you think Jordan would prefer a roster with 2 studs and crap, or the rosters that he had with talent all the way down to the bench? I think Jordan would pick the team that had centers above 7 foot that could hit open shots, play defense and rebound and guards that could do the impossible, like make wide open shots. And FYI, anyone that knows basketball realizes that Durant has not had a better career than Pippen. He may be a better "scorer", but not necessarily a better "player". Jordan had plenty of help! Do you realize Magic played better than Doc in the 80 Finals? There is a reason one won Finals MVP and the other didn't. I'm 100% positive the Lakers would not have given up Magic for Gervin or Westphal. In Magic's 1st playoffs he put up 18, 11, 9 and 3 on 52%, winning the Finals MVP with arguably the best closeout game in league history, AFTER losing the MVP. He dropped 17, 11, 9 and 2.9 on 53% in his 3rd playoffs, on the way to another Finals MVP (over Docs Sixers again). Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he was considered one of the top 5 players in basketball. Funny how he hasn't been able to carry a team without a stud player anywhere since Shaq got old and left. You are missing the point. All of those teams had more talent on the roster than the 2011 Miami Heat. And nice way to completely ignore all the times the Jazz lost with Malone and Stockton. Those 2 are clearly top players at their positions, in their primes. So it looks like I fulfilled your criteria. If you think the Miami Heat were the most talented team in NBA history in comparison to their competition then you obviously don't know basketball. Highlight which teams had as much overall talent as Russell's Celtics? What other team in basketball had as much talent as the 96 Bulls? What other team in basketball had as much talent as the 02 Lakers? What other team in basketball had as much talent as the Lakers or Celtics over the past 4 seasons? Do you realize last years Lakers had just as much talent as Miami? Do you realize last years Celtics had 4 All-Stars? You might wanna stop saying others don't know basketball when you post statements like the Heat are the most talented team in NBA history in comparison to their competition. Edit: And I guess I'm not clear on what your overall point is. If it's that the Heat should have won last year and that they would have if LeBron didn't choke then I don't think anyone disagrees with that.
while i'm mostly on your side in this argument with gmoney411, there is no doubt wade was a top 5 player last year and has been when healthy for several years. i think the general consensus last year was that it was 1) lebron, 2) dwight, 3) wade (probably not coincidentally, those were the PER rankings as well). kobe made the 1st team but that's just because voters are morons and even keep putting kobe on the 1st team all-defense (which is more ridiculous than putting kobe on the all-nba 1st team). kobe hasn't been better than wade in several years. durant doesn't have the skins on the wall to surpass wade yet but he is at least in the conversation. rose may have won mvp but he wasn't better than lebron or wade last year. dirk went crazy in the 4th quarter in playoff games but before that magical run would not have been considered by anybody to be better than wade (though dirk was the best player in the playoffs). paul is good and right there but was hampered last year. and dwill and melo just aren't in the conversation with wade at all. and magic was a top 5 player. and considering kareem won mvp magic's first year, so was kareem. and shaq and kobe were both in the top 5 for the 2001 and 2002 playoffs. with very good role players. yeah that statement was ridiculous. the heat won 58 games last year. and that was with lebron leading the league in PER, wade finishing 3rd, and bosh doing about what you would expect with fewer touches. the big 3 essentially played right up to their potential and didn't miss almost any games and the team won 58 games. you can maybe win a few more or lose a few more than your talent dictates, depending on how close games go, but over 82 games you pretty much are who your record says you are. even if we account for the heat's bad luck in close game, maybe they are really a 62 win team, right there with the bulls and right where the mavs would have been without that 2-7 stretch when dirk missed those 9 games. role players matter and even with the big 3 being one of the most productive trios ever, it was still only worth 58 wins and basically put them in a tie as one of the best teams in the league. would they have won the finals if lebron played up to his capabilities? yeah, most likely, but it would have probably just meant they won in 6 instead of losing in 6. they weren't some uber-dominant team. the only reason they beat the celtics and bulls in 5 is that, unlike the regular season, they basically won every close game. those series were far from blowouts. if not for a miracle comeback in game 5 against the bulls, that series goes 6 or 7.
