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2012-2013 Astros Offseason: Trade & FA Speculation

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by juicystream, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    You're going to dig your heels in here, huh? Which teams "know" this information? Because between the two of us, I'm pretty sure I’m the only one actually talking to, you know, a team. And they're telling me: he will be highly-coveted. (That was their term, BTW. My post is nearly a word-for-word quote.)

    So even if you've somehow managed to magically conjure the collective opinion of 29 other MLB teams that they “know” Berkman can't stay healthy (an opinion, btw, that would fly in the face of a pretty impressive 12-year track record of staying healthy), we're talking about a league that just paid Mike Napoli $39MM while playing, on average, 104 games/year, including 108 last year and 113 the year before. Considering, other than 2012, Berkman has never played fewer than 114 games since becoming a full-time ML'er, explain to me how - even if he does ultimately miss time - he's not going to fetch a contract too rich for the Astros if, at the present, he proves healthy?

    Yeah, I do - and that pretty much seals my case. He had a terrible 2010 season, including a fairly high-profile flop with the Yankees - and a team *still* gave him $8MM. If he can prove healthy, he'll be promoting an MVP-level season; in fact, his 164 OPS+ in 2011 was the best of his career. (And considerably better than Napoli’s 112 in 2012.) I would guess $8MM will be the low-end of his offers – and almost certainly too rich for the Astros.

    Is there a chance he doesn’t care about the money and takes a very favorable deal to play here? Sure, I guess. But the Astros have no expectation of that happening. Their expectation is: if he’s healthy, he’ll be highly-coveted.
     
  2. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    I expect Berkman to receive offers from other teams in the $5M range.

    I expect Berkman to get a deal between $5-10M from the Astros for one year with a mutual option. Basically whatever it costs to lure him over retirement.

    Berkman will either take the Astros offer or retire. I don't expect him to give us a hometown discount (which he actually said he would), but rather a hometown farewell tour. Berkman wanted to spend his career here. Never wanted to leave. Wanted to come back as soon as he did.
     
  3. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    I also like how you throw knowing someone in the organization into my face. Congrats, you have a better connection to one MLB team. One we both agree are interested in Berkman. Unless your contact is Crane, Luhnow, or Postolos, I'm not sure they would know what they are willing to spend on him.

    And FWIW, I do actually have a client that was a scout for the Dodgers for 26 years. Not that I ask him about these things or if he would even know. He's not aging so well.
     
  4. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    You know what... why don't we ask Mr. Berkman...
    Berkman made $12MM last year; do any of those quotes read like a man resigned to taking a 60% pay cut?
     
  5. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    ......................................
     
  6. stobbartjohn

    stobbartjohn Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  7. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Yes, 4 teams contacted him. One signed Napoli, and has Ortiz, another wanted him to be a bench player, one is the Astros, and the last is a team that doesn't spend much money but I'm sure will be at the door offering $5M.

    No, I don't think Berkman wants to take a 60% paycut, even though that salary was a 50% increase from the previous year. I think Berkman either wants: an assload of money he isn't going to get, he is going to play for the Astros, or he is going to retire. He has added value to the Astros.

    Lets say the Rangers struck out in FA, they could come in and be dangerous.
     
  8. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    So what are the Astros willing to spend?
     
  9. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    Go back to what I originally posted: if he's healthy, the team expects him to be highly-coveted.

    Until he proves healthy (and there were hints that's being looked into presently), no one knows. But you're living in a dream world if you think a 100% healthy Lance Berkman won't be highly-coveted.
     
  10. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Most comparable deal I can find is 2009 deal Jason Giambi signed with the A's.

    $4M + $6.5M club option (1.25M buyout)

    Giambi was coming off 32 HRs and had a .876OPS and was turning 38.

    Vlad Guerrero had a couple of similar signings one for $5.5M then $8M.

    Berkman only has 7 homers in his last 389 PAs.
     
  11. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    There is no such thing as a 100% healthy Lance Berkman. His knee will never be 100%.

    You are living in a dream world if you expect a 37 year old with a history of knee injuries coming off missing 130 games plus postseason getting big dollars.

    It isn't that I don't expect teams to be interested, just not at significant dollars.
     
    #131 juicystream, Dec 5, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  12. kaleidosky

    kaleidosky Your Tweety Bird dance just cost us a run

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    Hey Now!--you need to stop using Napoli's games played as your benchmark. The guy has played Catcher in 77 gms / season on average. We all know catchers typically need more rest. Plus the Red Sox are signing him to play 1B full time.

    When he had injuries, they were nagging ones like strained quads. Not major ones like what Berkman has had lately.
     
  13. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    I found a more comparable deal: Lance Berkman in 2010. He was coming off an unhealthy year in which he battled injury, missed 40 games, and posted the lowest OPS of his career (and overall, an OPS that rates just slightly above-league average). And the Cardinals paid him $8MM, which was a 45% pay cut.

    Missing a season is significant and costly. But if he's healthy... it's less significant. And the fallback will be that, when healthy, he still rakes; exhibit A: 2011.

    You may end up being right; but at this moment, there's nothing to suggest you will be. All the evidence points to him getting a significantly better deal than you're predicting: He expects to; the Astros expect him to; the market is thus far active and rich; teams are interested even before they know his physical status...
     
  14. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Except Lance was 35 back then, and didn't have another knee surgery. Not more similar.

    When healthy, he might still rake. His stats show that he still hits righties extremely well. Even if you look back at 2011, his power completely diappeared after July. In 389 PAs, he hit 7 HRs. Assuming he gets 600PAs, which is about where he has been at in his recent relatively healthy seasons, he'd be on pace for 11HRs.

    There is nothing to suggest I'll be wrong. 4 teams called to guage his interest in playing again. That isn't really showing much. That is incredibly typical behavior when you are planning on looking at FAs. Every FA that is going to get a ML deal is going to field some calls.

    To me the question marks are, how much is holding off retirement worth for Lance, and are the Astros doing more than grandstanding on him.
     
  15. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    The Red Sox are paying him $13MM/year to play full-time despite his never having played full-time. In relation to Berkman - is he not in a similiar situation? Wanting full-time money with no guanratee he can play full-time? If the Red Sox are willing to bet $13MM Napoli can shoulder a full load, is the risk around Berkman worth 60-65% less?
     
  16. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    Did you maybe mean to say, "Other than Berkman & the Astros, (t)here is nothing to suggest I'll be wrong."? Because they're both expressing different opinions and they seem like much better sources than you.

    That four teams called prior to any health confirmation indicates that if he actually receives a clean bill of health, that number is likely going to increase. Again, that's not my opinion; it's the opinion of a high-ranking Astro official (check your email).
     
  17. Major

    Major Member

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    Yes - but most of that is not injury. He's available nearly the whole season every year - but the Angels manager was just obsessed with playing the crappy backup player. This year was certainly an exception though with a fairly extended injury absense. He's also much younger, in his prime, and plays an offensive-challenged position.
     
  18. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Berkman hasn't said anything other than that he isn't sure he will come back. He wouldn't come back for only a couple of million and that he'd be interested in playing for the Astros. Berkman himself has really only publicly addressed being interested in rejoining the Astros, and that he would consider retiring.

    Teams always call perspective free agents. Reports don't say that they got into any details at all. That doesn't mean anything for how much money he is going to get.

    I did check. I've got no reason to not believe you. I disagree with your source though if he really believes Berkman is going to get significant interest. Strangely, MLBTradeRumors predicted he would get about $5M in 2010 when he was a FA, and he ended up with $8M. I think around 5 teams will have legit offers, which I believe will be around $5M, but he would need over $10M to sign with somebody other than the Astros.

    We may never know if I'm right, we can only determine if I was wrong by him signing with another team for more. My prediction is the Astros sign him for $5M + mutual option featuring a buyout that could push the actual value higher. If he does, it could be a hometown discount.
     
  19. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Berkman has at least 4 knee surgeries, Napoli just had some time splitting and a couple of minor injuries.

    Given Berkman's age, and knee, he is more likely to flop. He is 2010 position with 2 additional knee surgeries.
     
  20. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Luhnow has met with Berkman's agents per Tags.

    Hopefully they were positive.
     

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